Why do Men with Excessive Body Hair go Bald More?

A year after I wrote this post, an interesting new study comcluded that hair follicles across the body communicate with each other! Truly astounding.

Scalp Hair Loss :-( Back Hair Gain :-(

Around the year 2000, I started noticing that the vast majority of people that I saw in the gym or pool who had very hairy backs also tended to be heavily balding. If I had to put a figure to it, I would guess that 75 percent of men with excessive body hair (especially hairy backs) tend to be balding severely.

I saw a similar, but weaker correlation between those with substantial chest hair and scalp hair loss. In contrast, for those without any back or chest hair at all, the balding rate is extremely low. Perhaps less than 25 percent when it comes to young to middle-aged men. I doubt that I am off by much in both my above percentage estimates. Past studies also confirm that androgens stimulate beard growth, but suppress scalp hair growth.

Besides at the gym and in the pool, I have also noticed this trend among my own immediate family members and in-laws. My father has zero back hair and very little chest hair, but he had an absolutely stellar head of hair into his 60s. Even in his early 70s, he still has better hair than I have in my 30s. And of course I have a lot more body hair then him. My brother-in-law went bald in his 20s, and has an extremely hairy back. Same correlation with several of my unlucky friends.

Hairy Balding Athletes

When I first started noticing this phenomenon, I was a big tennis fan. The two superstars of the game at the time, Andre Agassi and Pete Sampras, were both very hirsute in their bodies. And, not surprisingly, both were balding on their scalps. Agassi used to wax his chest and back hair regularly, so some of his topless photos are deceptive.

Since retiring, balding Sampras has been rumored to have had one or several hair transplants. I would guess that his scalp would look more like his father’s Norwood 6 one were it not for the transplant(s).

Bald Man with Hairy Back
A man with excessive body hair on his back. Common sight at sporting events.

Lucky on the Scalp, Lucky on the Back

Native Americans/American Indians (who are genetically related to East Asians) have almost zero body hair. Not surprisingly, I have never seen a balding young full-blooded native American. The one native American that I did see with major hair loss was half Caucasian.

Chinese, Japanese and Korean people (all part of the East Asian family) rarely have chest or back hair, and tend to have much less balding in comparison to other races. Especially at younger ages.

It should be noted that even among Asians, there are some hirsute exceptions to this stereotype. One publicized recent case covered a Chinese girl with hypertrichosis who was raising money for laser hair removal.

Excessive Body Hair
World’s hairiest man from China. Body hair covers 97% of his body.

Finasteride Works Better for People with Excessive Body Hair

Around a year ago, I discovered a very interesting 2014 study from Japan. It concluded that people with more body hair tended to respond better to finasteride treatment for androgenetic alopecia. In my opinion, this is a fascinating discovery. Men who were “pileous” in areas other than the scalp might benefit more from dihydrotestosterone reduction.

It should be noted that very few Japanese people are likely to be very pileous or hirsute. I wish someone would do the same study on very hairy Caucasian men. I am including Armenians, Greeks, Persians, Turks, Afghans, East Indians and South Asians, Middle Easterners and so on as part of the extended Caucasian race definition here.

Many Finasteride and Dutasteride Users Have Seen a Reduction in Body Hair

Over the years, I have read countless testimonials on various hair loss forums of people who were taking 5α-reductase inhibitors finasteride or dutasteride seeing a significant reduction in body hair. People taking anti-androgens such as spironolactone and cyproterone acetate also report similar side effects.

However, to me, the surprising thing is that there are probably far more people who see no obvious reduction in body hair while on finasteride or dutasteride. I would have guessed that drastically reducing DHT levels is bound to reduce body hair in most people. Especially in those who have a ton of it to start off with? Yet, less than one-third of such hirsute people seem to see a reduction in body hair when on those drugs.

In any case, below are a few recent examples of people who noticed a reduction in body hair while on finasteride or dutasteride:

  • In an excellent recent thread worth bookmarking, HLT forum member “dnpuntold” stated: “body hair looks a lot thinner and less which is nice since I’m a freaking gorilla.”
  • On this very blog, in the comments to my post on the cost of generic finasteride, “paddy” stated: “I have been taking Propecia (non generic) for 18 yrs, I agree with the “hold the line” comment above. It pretty much stopped by hair loss when I started it. Have experienced no negative side effects as far as I can tell. But a nice bonus is that much of my other body hair (back, butt, arms, chest, etc) has thinned dramatically. Its as if it reapportioned that hair back to my head. Was a welcome side effect.”
  • Also on this very blog, in the comments to my post on dutasteride success and failure stories, six (!) people thus far have mentioned body hair reduction after taking Avodart.

Do Men with Excess Body Hair Have Higher Testosterone and DHT Levels?

One of the biggest myths ever purported in the hair loss world is that balding men are more virile and have higher levels of testosterone. This is not true.

I also do not think that balding men have significantly higher levels of dihydrotesterone (DHT) in comparison to non-balding men. Keep in mind that I have not read any data on that subject. What is true is that balding men’s scalp hair follicles are more sensitive to the damaging effects of DHT.

For me, the more interesting thing is that it seems like balding men’s body hair is also more sensitive to the effects of DHT. Albeit, in the opposite direction, unfortunately. DHT seems to make a high proportion of balding men turn hirsute and grow copious amounts of body hair.

Skepticism on the Hirsutism vs. Androgentic Alopecia Correlation

In the past, I have talked to two experienced hair transplant surgeons about this phenomenon and theory of mine. To my surprise, both have told me that they do not see such a correlation. i.e., regarding men with hairy backs and chests being much more likely to bald then men without hairy backs and chests. I remain 100 percent convinced of such a correlation.

In recent years, I have also read many hair loss forum members suggest the same thing. However, since there are always exceptions to the rule (e.g., balding Asians without hair backs), this correlation theory does not get as much attention as it should. There is always some person who will ruin a thread on this subject. Usually, by writing: “I have no body hair and am still balding. So I do not buy this theory!”

Exception: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has more scalp hair then would be expected based on his plentiful body hair. He is still balding from behind per other photos.

Hypertrichosis (Hirsutism) in Khalid Sheikh Muhammed.
Hypertrichosis (aka Hirsutism) in terrorist Khalid Sheikh Muhammed.

Body Hair Transplants (BHT)

In the original headings for the first two sections of this post, I implied that people with hairy backs were lucky. I then added a question mark (?) at the end. I have since changed those headings due to them becoming too lengthy and confusing.

My reasoning for this ambiguity was due to two contradicting phenomena:

  1. Most people with robust back hair would probably consider themselves unlucky. Hirsutism and hypertrichosis are usually not desired by most men and women.
  2. A recent trend in the hair transplant world has resulted in many people being grateful to have more body hair. More on this body hair transplantation phenomenon below.

This trend involves moving body hair to balding regions of the scalp, and is termed as body hair transplants (BHT). I have discussed BHT a few times over the years, and will have more posts on the subject in the future.

For now, its worth noting that only certain types of body hair are usually worth transplanting. Beard, chest and back hair seem to be the most utilized, in order of importance and desirability.

Body hair will never be as good as scalp hair that is moved from the permanent donor region at the back of the head. Nevertheless, there are now 100s of video documented cases online of people who have been happy with body hair transplants.

For people with very limited scalp donor hair (i.e., those with very extensive balding patterns), robust thick back hair and chest hair might now be considered to be a lucky thing! Dr. Ray Wood’s first BHT patient video is worth watching.

Hairy Balding Women

This post has mostly focused on men. This is because I doubt that there are many women who have their backs covered with thick lengthy hair. Some women do have thick beard and chest hair growth, but this is a rarity.

It should be noted that a high proportion of balding women also complain of excess body hair. Usually in areas other than the back. Many of these women suffer from a condition called polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS). This hormonal disorder causes women to have high levels of male hormones. Here is a good resource for such women.

Last and Definitely the Least: Ernie Primeau

In the history of the online hair loss world, there has never been anyone more insane and crazier than a certain Mr. Ernie Primeau. I briefly discussed him in a post here. Ernie holds the all-time record for number of hair loss forum and hair loss newsgroup posts. Especially in the alt.baldspot newsgroup. A record that will never be surpassed by another human being.

Even into his old age, the man is still present online and continues to promote his theory: removing all of ones body hair via plucking will regrow scalp hair!! Of course I do not believe this possibility. However, perhaps it might very well have been Mr. Primeau who got me thinking about the inverse correlation between body hair and scalp hair over a decade ago.

I am pretty sure that it was my fellow gym and pool members and family members. But my memory could be incorrect. In any event, I hope to never mention Ernie again on this blog after today.

320 thoughts on “Why do Men with Excessive Body Hair go Bald More?”

  1. I can only confirm your observations. I would put it like, 90℅ of people with visible balding in their 20s have excessive body hair by early 30s, even at arms (the part that is easy to spot), and to a less degree might start graying At early thirties. Sometimes body hair is less noticeable (eg blond or thin), but still excessive.
    I believe this is largely hormonal, and I can only confirm that dutastride will reduce excessive body hair.
    There are few people with excessive body hair and 0 balding, they genetically have insensitive hair follicles.
    And there are people who start balding at earlier age but genetically develop no body hair.

      1. I find there are a few types:

        1. No body hair and bald (nordics/english)

        2. Body hair and bald (Mediterranean area)

        3. No body hair and not bald (asians/s.american/mexico/south pacific)

        4. black people

        So, the body hair and bald group seems to be the largest bald group, but that nordic/english phenotype seems to be an outlier.

        1. I have seen a ton of balding and hirsute Englishmen, Irishmen, Scotsman etc…Sean Connery perhaps being the most well known example.

          1. Very hair, Scottish and balding all over scalp here.

            No doubt that Hair loss and body hair are caused by the same mechanism. My greatest curiosity is why I’m really fair haired on top but have jet black hair everywhere else?!

    1. I noticed many bald people tend to have more body hair AND are shorter. Of course you see hair 6’5” and bald folks every now and then, but the vast majority seems to be 5’10’, hairy, and bald.

      I think maybe PCOS, early onset of androgens/puberty, may play some sort of role.

      1. To add to that, I noticed most tall people hit puberty MUCH later… and tend to have less body hair, and their face looks like ravaged by androgens (less weathered, less acne scars, etc.)

        1. I have been noticing this for years. Growing up I was taller than most. I had good skin too.
          Then puberty seemed to set in before most. Bad skin was a problem. Then at about 16 i maxed out at 5’10, but many of my friends gained lots of height around 18-20 years of age. Not to mention they have almost zero body hair even to the point they can’t grow facial hair.

          1. If you look at the nba, there are very few players with hairloss… maybe 10% or less. Look at ginobili. Being bald in the NBA is such an uncommon thing that giniboli was basically famous for being bald. It was that distinguishing.

      2. Tallness is mostly genetical and partially from external factors doesnt have anything to do with hair loss.

        What You do notice is simply that the average Caucasian man height is 5-10 and most of the man have hairloss through their life.

    2. Ya I started balding when I was 18, I’m 27 now and almost completely bald. At the moment a have almost no body hair, but just last week I started to notice new shoulder and back hair. I started balding as soon as I started having sex. Maybe men bald to let other girls know that they are in a relationship and are off limits lol. Sounds stupid but makes good sense. So guys don’t start having sex until you find that special someone.

    3. Yaa you are 100% true. Me and my brother started balding in early 20s but I have lot of body hair but my brother has no body hair. Even he has very this beard. On the other hand, my father still has more hair than me and my brother and he also has no significant body hair. I think it all about hormonal but less genetical that define baldness.

  2. Very interesting post. I tend to have found the same observations as yourself. There has to be a correlation.

    One thing I have noted too, in regard to my scalp, is that any hair that has fallen out is replaced by vellus hair. Kind of hoping they just need reawakened!

    Follica, interestingly, are also working on hair reduction. If that works, my back is getting it! More so my shoulder blades than lower back though.

  3. Admin,

    I appreciate this post and your blog, but you should note that use of the term “mongoloid” is dated and offensive (similar to the use of the word “negro” or “negroid” to describe people of African ancestry). Please consider rewriting/editing with this in mind. I am hopeful this was done out of ignorance, and was not intentional. Thanks.


    1. Thanks Frank I never knew! Will read those links and the decide soon.

      I always assumed there are three main races/splits in humans: caucasoids, negroids and mongoloids. Guess last two could be offensive nowadays.

      1. That is the correct three races. Even though many may consider it offensive that is the what anthropological terminology. I enjoyed the post. I have noticed this for many years. I’m a grandmother of eight and just got thinking about this from a Turkish program I’m watching on Netflix. I decided to do a little research and see if anybody else had any input as to this phenomena. retired nurse, I’m a science buff, so wanted to get down to the scientific explanation for this. Thank you for a great posting.

    2. An addition to my reply earlier:

      They were originally five categories proposed in the 1700s. Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, Native American Indian and Mayan Indian. The last two were finally included into Mongolid category because it is well documented, with DNA, including my own, that Native Americans originated in Asia. These are used in anthropology studies, forensic work etc. It is based on skull features that absolutely very within those three categories. Even though people may take offense, as they may think of and earlier time when mongolism was associated with downs syndrome. That came about because of the eye features that resembled Asians. The name was from the area of the world known as Mongolia. Whenever I’ve use these terms, which isn’t something that comes about every day conversation. I’m generally speaking with people who understand this area of study but I always preface it with an explanation that what they are going to hear may not land softly on ears but this is scientific terminology.

  4. Hello All,

    Long time lurker, first time poster. I hate to be rude, but this is just utter speculation. I don’t believe there is ANY correlation, nor is there any scientific evidence to support your hypothesis. I’ve been visiting this site for quite some time and have you tell you this: there is NO way we will see any such hair loss cure in the near future- let alone the year 2016. You sound like an educated guy, (you previously mentioned you were a math major) but the premise of this website is wrong. We are no closer to a cure today than we were 20 years ago. It takes an ENORMOUS amount of time for a drug to be approved. Hair loss isn’t even considered a major disease, so the urgency to get a treatment to market just isn’t the same as with other paradigm shifting treatments. I apologize if I come off as harsh, but as molecular biologist I’d rather be honest and forthright, instead of transmitting false information. Curing hair loss would entail being able to regenerate entire organs. I don’t see this as a possibility for the next four decades- let alone within the next four years. As entertaining as this blog is, unfortunately it is just fiction- well written fiction, mind you,

    1. You could very well be correct about the near-term, but I have no idea how you can guess 40 years ahead based on the exponential pace we are seeing in technological progress these days. You are way more brilliant compared to me if you can guess 40 years ahead, and I am flattered that you consider me somewhat intelligent.

      1. No need for the passive agressive response there, buddy. I never stated I was more intelligent than you. Certain fields rapidly advance, however this is not the case when it comes to medicine. The average time it takes for a treatment to be approved is 10+ years! Recent advances in oncology have only prolonged the lives of cancer patients by an average of several months, and this is after years and years of painstaking research. Curing hair loss at this point is nothing short of a moonshot. I wish you and others were more realistic about the state of medicine, so as not to set yourselves up for disappointment. If a “cure” was to become available anytime around the next four years, it would already be nearing its final stages, and we would all be aware of it. I’m sorry to tell you that this is not the case.

        1. This researcher E. Wang just said there is a 5/10 chance that JAKs will cure AGA:


          Even more surprising, he mentions Replicel (=Shiseido) to be the best bet….so that would imply that he rates Replicel/Shiseido even higher than a 5/10.

          In any case, we can disagree for now and you can correct or criticize my optimism every so often, but please let people comment on the subject matter of this post now.

        2. @Elbright_Dan What field in molecular biology are you in? And if you are a reader/lurker of this blog and still don’t see how a treatment could be approved by 2020 your logic must be overly influenced by your pure ignorance. Other countries besides the US exist. Not all drugs take 10 years to approve. 40 years ago it was 1976. The technology and amount of knowledge gained since then has been enormous champ. But ya, you studied molecular biology so you are smarter than well respected researchers. Btw your posts were passive aggressive, not the Admin’s post. Go be angry at your life somewhere else.

          1. Guest99, you’re one fiesty little guy aren’t you? I’m not angry with my life. It seems like you’re the combative one. As far as my field, I do research with silencing oncogenes. I graduated from Emory Unicersity. I think my credentials are ok. As far as your other statement, yes, I know that other countries exist. However, do YOU know that the amount of time spent research a drug, testing its efficacy and safety, and finally marketing it is no small order. We’ve made headway in the last decade or so, but I can promise you that organ regeneration isn’t something you’re likely to see be 2020 or even in the distant future. If you really believe we’ll have a cure within four years, I have a bag of magic beans I’d like to sell you.

        3. This is a fairly ridiculous post. Regardless of your credentials, be they Janitor, Ph.D(?) Molecular Biologist, or Supreme Ruler of the Universe, you’re being petty, a bit silly, and, to use your own word, combative. And the charge you leveled at the Admin– passive aggressiveness– definitely seems to apply to your posts.

          You start out by saying you think there’s no correlation between hair loss and general hirsutism, then dive whole hog into an unrelated attack on the admin and his blog.

          For the record, it makes quite a bit of sense that there might be a straight-line correlation in many cases to excessive body and and hair loss, given they’re both caused by exposure to the same hormone. It seems likely to me that, on average, men with both balding scalps likely *do* have higher levels of DHT (note I said on average), and are certainly likely to be more sensitive to the hormone in general. Remember that though the genes responsible for other aspects of balding (those on chromosome 9 and 20, for example) are going to get shuffled around all over the place through genetic recombination, the androgen receptors responsible for hair loss and androgenic hair growth are on the X chromosome, and thus are a bit more resilient to change. It’s also probably likely that these two traits– hirsutism and balding– developed in tandem and so have some genetic correlation to begin with.

          I’m not entirely sure why you’ve got such a chip on your shoulder, or what it is precisely that’s actually bothering you, but your frustration and anger seem misdirected. Is 2020 guaranteed? Absolutely not. Does he claim he’s certain? No. He’s optimistic, and to be fair, this blog isn’t brand new. 2020 used to be further away.

          Discoveries happen all the time, and, given the state of things (numerous pieces of the puzzle falling into place at a brisk rate), 2020 in my estimation isn’t as insane as you think. Yes, we know about the cost of big drugs (billions), and the time it often takes (years), but there’s no reason to necessarily believe that the cure for hair loss will be a hypercomplex molecular drug. As you doubtlessly know, other countries have expedited processes… FDA approval isn’t the be-all end-all.

          Hair loss isn’t considered a major disease, no, but whomever figures out a cure stands to make quite a bit of money, which is generally what drives drugs.

          While I’d be lying if I said some of your thoughts (e.g. if there were something in the pipeline other than Shishedo/Follica/JAK etc. we’d know about it) hadn’t occurred to me as well, I don’t think it’s quite that cut and dried . As I mentioned before, “pieces of the puzzle” are dropping into place as we speak. Hair loss is an enormously complex process as I’m sure you can appreciate, and it’s likely or at least plausible that the cure might come in the form of an amalgamation of previous discovery.

          As far as it being a moonshot, if memory serves, we actually did shoot ourselves to the moon. About 40 years ago (give or take 7 years).

          1. Thanks Dan. Turns out he was someone I warned before (lots of bs comments under changing usernames) and he had a grudge. He just lied and got caught again…now he has a double grudge.

        4. Dan,

          I too have been a longtime lurker of this forum and, whilst I see where you’re coming from, I think a bit of balance from both sides is necessary in this debate.

          Yes, there is no doubt a lot of reckless optimism on this forum. I agree, in the broadest sense, that a “cure” is not around the corner. Anybody with the vaguest sense of how clinical research and development works will know that the moonshot is not going to appear out of thina ir.

          However, there is an important caveat here. I think what constitutes an acceptable “cure” is different from person to person. It would appear that your definition of a cure (which is admittedly the purest one and understandable as a biologist) is essentially the ability to create new follicles, which we know are one of the most complex organs in the human body. That is without doubt a complete impossibility before 2020, and almost certainly before 2030, 40 or 50 for that matter, at least in the sense of creating an affordable cosmetic product the average man can hope to use.

          However, I think for most men a drug-based means of significantly slowing hairloss and reawakening or rejuvenating follicles susceptible to MPB, perhaps combined with one or more hair transplant procedures, would be a more than acceptable definition of a “cure” if it meant they could have a good head of hair for the majority of their adult lives. There is some reason to believe that a combination of existing, improved or novel drugs could be on the market that may represent the next generation of hair maintenance and restoration – perhaps not by 2020 exactly, but not necessarily long afterwards. This might offer a lot of men the solution they’ve been looking for, at least in terms of being able to have a head of hair with sufficient quality and density, and maintain that hair for a long period of time.

          I do see where you’re coming from, we aren’t going to “cure” hairloss any time soon, in the sense that a Norwood 7 will be able to have an injection or swallow some pills and be sporting a man-bob 3 months later. A lot of the optimism here is based more on fantasy than reality.

          But an improved regime that offers more options, that improves hair counts, that can be combined with hair transplantation to create real options for even men with advanced balding? That really isn’t out of the question in the next 4-5 years.

          Whilst this forum occasionally veers into the realms of the fantastical from time to time, I do see genuinely hope that new and useful products will be on the marketplace in the not too distant future. Men will still have to accept they can’t have a full head of hair. They will still have to sacrifice a considerable amount of time and money into restoring their hair, they will still have to consider the side effects and pitfalls of their treatment and they will still have to develop a credible and realistic plan that balances expectation with reality – but for a lot of men having ostensibly a strong head of hair through surgical and medical means may become increasingly likely. Perhaps not the “cure”, but if it means 10 or 15 or 20% more men can achieve their goals of no longer worrying about hairloss, that’s still something to be very excited about.

          1. Thanks for your comment, but please see my bolded comment earlier. Dan was a fake guy who has posted here with many different usernames and held a grudge because he was warned in the past.

          2. I guess I wasn’t clear at all about what I think of when I think “cure by 2020″…. personally for me my hope is that a “cure” will come out for men (and women) with flagging hair follicles that are still there…. thinning, maybe even very thin, but not totally bald. I definitely agree about norwood 7’s… (or 6’s or even 5’s ;)

            Follicular neogenesis… or even reawakening/reactivating old follicles is a ways away I imagine. Although I don’t really see how you could predict 35 years into the future… that seems a bit.. well, totally impossible, a bit like trying to predict the weather two months in advance.

            That’s pretty sad admin. Wonder if he’s even a molecular biologist.

  5. Anyone thinking about BHT do NOT do it. I did it and after 2 years most of it failed.

    Swisstemples has proven beyond any doubt that we can reactivate follicles.

  6. I guess the admin has thin skin, since he deleted my last comment for disagreeing with him. There will certainly not be a cure within the next four years. I can certainly explain why. It’s about time this blog stops propagating false hope.

    1. Not true. All first comments have to be approved and yours was awaiting that approval. Then future comments come through automatically. You are not the first regular/obsessed visitor who has mentioned a cure is decades away:-) I have yet to disapprove any such comments predicting that a cure is decades away.

    2. -Arthur Summerfield, 1955
      A decade before the first people walked on the moon in 1969, the US Postmaster General said, “Before man reaches the moon, your mail will be delivered within hours from New York to Australia by guided missiles. We stand on the threshold of rocket mail.”

      -T. Craven, 1961
      The FCC Commissioner predicted there was “practically no chance” that satellites would be used to improve phone, telegraph, TV and radio service. Satellites are now used for the four services, as well as functions such as Google Maps and sat-navs.

      -Robert Metcalfe, 1995
      Metcalfe predicted the internet would implode in the year 1996. The brains behind the ethernet cable and founder of 3Com, Metcalfe said “the internet will soon go spectacularly supernova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse”. He promised to “eat his words” if he was wrong. At a conference in 1997, true to his word, he used a food processor to liquefy a copy of the article containing the mistake, and then drank it.

      -Steve Jobs, 2003
      In an interview with Rolling Stone, Jobs said music subscriptions were doomed. “The subscription model of buying music is bankrupt. I think you could make available the [Stone Roses’] Second Coming in a subscription model, and it might not be successful,” he said. More than a decade later music streaming subscription services had become so popular that Apple Music launched.

      -Steven Chen, 2005
      One of the co-founders of YouTube, Chen initially questioned the service’s long-term strategy. “There’s just not that many videos I want to watch,” he said.

      Smart people who “know their field” are wrong all the time. Its way easier to point out problems rather than solutions. Dan Elbright, I dont know you but from what I can tell you seem to be a problem oriented guy, which is fine, we need people like you. But if I were you I would be alot more humble about it.

      -Dan Elbright, 2016
      “We are no closer to a cure today than we were 20 years ago. ”
      “Curing hair loss would entail being able to regenerate entire organs. I don’t see this as a possibility for the next four decades- let alone within the next four years.”

    3. You stumbled in to the wrong place. Find somewhere else to spread your shit.
      Nobody here listens to you anyway!
      We are here, following this blog because we believe there will be a change on the hair front in the near future, so you got the wrong audience.

      NB: remember that science always change. And something that they nevner thought could ever happend, happend..! Everything is possible! It’s all about cracking that code!

  7. I should add my BHT failed so badly the guy who did it (Ray Woods) threatened me with legal action if I posted pics online.

  8. my family and i used to go to Mexico for vacation, I’ve been there many times and i noticed the exact opposite from the US. In the US it’s like 8 or so out of 10 men have hair loss and in mexico it’s like 8 out of 10 have full hair. I noticed the people have very small foreheads, or their hairline is closer to the brow and eyes. Many have body hair, like fine black hairs all over the lower back, hairy arms etc. The women too. I saw many older men with full heads of hair.

  9. Like you believe there’s a correlation between body hair and hair loss, I think there’s also one for size of a person’s forehead and hair loss. Of course this is not scientifically proven and also there are exceptions but I feel those with small foreheads tend to have fuller hair even into old age.

    1. Lol I thought he was kidding until I kept reading…. given that the less hair someone had the bigger their forehead looks XD

  10. The anecdotal evidence that there is a correlation is very, very strong, and I’m surprised there haven’t been any proper studies on the issue. I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone suffering from hirsutism who wasn’t bald. The link is DHT (this is proven by the significant anecdotal evidence that anti-androgens also reduce body hair), but who knows what the causal connection is.

  11. While I believe there is a correlation between these two variables, I’m not sure how much. Obviously there are cases where people are hairy and have great hair and vice versa. But it’s very interesting post and something that I think should be paid more attention to. Good post admin, thanks for keeping us informed.

  12. I’ve been curious about how topical Turmeric/Curcumin allegedly reduces body hair, supposedly due to DHT inhibition. It’s also potentially active against JAK/STAT although not exactly the same mechanism as the tofactinib research… I’ve started using a turmeric body soap because I wouldn’t mind a reduction in body hair and it’s good for skin regardless. But I’d be lying if I didn’t admit to a vague hope that reducing DHT body-wide in the skin (if regular use of turmeric soap does that) might have a positive effect on the scalp. I mean, the skin is a single “organ” and every system in the body is inextricably connected. Why not?

  13. I have noticed this correlation. My theory is that each person’s body only allocates a certain amount of resources to hair growth. In males, body hair is prioritised over scalp hair. As more body hair is created, the amount of resources required to maintain every hair follicle goes up.

    The body will not sustain every follicle past a certain threshold. In order for more follicles to be created and maintained, the body gradually suppresses scalp hair to make room for more body hair – which explains miniaturisation.

    Furthermore, I believe DHT is the most responsible hormone for the creation of body hair which is another link between scalp hair loss and body hair gain.

    The evolutionary explanation for this is that thousands of years ago males would often spend days at a time out hunting for food in cold weather. It is more advantageous to have hair distributed over the whole body than concentrated on the scalp to keep the internal temperature as close to ideal as possible. The body therefore prioritises body hair over scalp hair in males.

    Men with very high thresholds for resources allocated to hair maintenance are able to sustain large amounts of body hair and scalp hair, however those with lower thresholds can only support one or the other which explains the correlation we notice entirely.

    This threshold is genetically determined, so if a tool like CRISPR can modify the threshold, then it would be a complete cure and allow anyone to have any amount of body hair and scalp hair.

    Theoretically, the permanent removal of terminal body hair follicles from a males body could cause scalp hair proportional to the amount removed to grow. This is may not be a one to one proportion however, and the permanent removal of one terminal body hair may result in the regrowth of multiple terminal scalp hairs.

    If anyone wants to discuss this further please do not hesitate.

    1. I seem to remember a hair plucking theory a while ago that got printed in a respected journal but as I recall there had to be a certain precision to it. Again, this was a study done in mice – not sure there was ever a human study done.

        1. Yep, that’s the one. Did actually have a short email correspondence with him about a previous study he did related to hair loss a few years ago. Very friendly and engaging. Might be worth actually getting in touch with him, perhaps he could contribute to the blog?

  14. Your theory is right admin…iam hairy as fu.k but still thinning.. iam almost like wolverine..hair every where..except on scalp…

  15. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26763726

    A new study in 2016. An observational retrospective evaluation of 79 young men with long-term adverse effects after use of finasteride against androgenetic alopecia.
    By the ad hoc questionnaire, the most frequent sexual symptoms referred were loss of penis sensitivity (87.3%), decreased ejaculatory force (82.3%), and low penile temperature (78.5%). The most frequent non-sexual symptoms were reduced feeling of life pleasure or emotions (anhedonia) (75.9%); lack of mental concentration (72.2%), and loss of muscle tone/mass (51.9%). REALLY AWESOME. THAT’S THE TRUTH.

    Hair transplant Doctors and dermatologist. Don’t ignore that. Read this new paper.

  16. I posted this because i think people with MPB needs a SAFER treatment than Finasteride and their side effects.

  17. @Elbright Dan,

    You got to realize that admin is writing this blog to a certain target audience. His real opinion is most likely different in real life. No way he would sincerely think that a cure would arrive in 2020, lol. He also said 60/40 for JAK’s but I gave him heavy odds to his side on a wager yet he refused. If he would lower his “optimism” it would be bad for his target audience and this blog. Most people come on this blog to feed their own hope. Makes them feel better. I have observed this countless times.

    I mean all the most experienced knowledgeable people I have talked with including super elite hair researchers concur that there simply will be no cure in the near future. That says something. If we are lucky we might replace therapies like finasteride and minoxidil in the near future though, that work just as good but with better side effect profiles and better convenience.

    Still that would be extremely great.

    1. Swoop, you’re a bartender. We’re supposed to believe that you’re in contact with “super elite” hair researchers? Give me a break.

    2. Come on Swoop that is nonsense. There have been numerous pessimists that have voiced their opinions here with free will and no censoring. My real opinion is fully on the side of optimism in both the blog and in real life. Mr. Wang just gave JAKs 5/10, and Replicel technology even better chances. Are you going to accuse him of faking it too?

      If you read all my “brief items of interest” posts’ medical items of interest sections, you can see I am optimistic when it comes to many medical areas and not just hair loss.

    3. @Swoop holy shiit bro, get a fuucking life, like seriously. You are trolling a hairloss blog. Go get laid (should be easy since you are sooooo good looking and everything) and just fuuck off. Btw, your hair is going to look like shiit in 4 years. No respectable surgeon would transplant hair on a 25 yo with your degree of hairloss. It blows my mind how many posts you leave here when it’s just to run your mouth saying you are the “devil’s advocate”, go make your own damn site. None cares about you. You contribute nothing. You are worse than dog shiit stuck to a shoe.

      1. No, he’s not trolling – he’s a longstanding member of HLT and has shown significant knowledge about the science behind hair loss. He’s probably one of the top five most informed posters on that forum.

        And I agree with him. There will be no “cure” by 2020, and probably not by 2030. The best we can hope for is more effective treatments, which might – MIGHT – arrive sometime around 2020. These next two years will tell us whether or not there will be any additions to the “Big Three.”

        1. If you consider Dutasteride to be significantly better than Finasteride like I do, we will have an addition to the “Big Three” very soon. It was approved to treat hair loss in Japan last year, and prior to that, was approved in South Korea. I am hopeful that it will be approved in the US in the near future.

      2. Guest99, I hate to say it, but you seem like the real loser here. You attacked Elbright and Swoop merely for being practical. I understand the admin needs to push his agenda forward, but jeez- you’re are one crazy lapdog. Save your anecdotal bullshit for winning poker arguments with your friends. You bring nothing to the table.

        1. Unbelievable… practical-dude, you have the exact same IP address as Elbright_Dan, and you were warned in the past too when using other names. Why are you so persistent? If you had stuck with one name I would have allowed you to stay here no problem even if you were critical of me.

          Names you have used on this blog — Elbright_Dan, practical-dude, Annoyedwityou, Crispswan, Dave, notamused, Scienceguy

          Just insane that now you have the nerve to pretend to be different from Elbright_Dan. You got caught before, and yet still do not realize how easy it is for me to track your IP.

          1. Alright, guy you win. I’ll stay off your blog, since you seem to have it out for me. Good luck, champ.

            1. Just do not see why you had to go through months of these games and today’s lies all because of a grudge. I have only ever banned 3 people from this blog so far, and 2 got reinstated after a break. You are welcome back in future, but take a few months off for now.

              If you do come back, you will need to get your IP un-banned and you can then select a brand new nickname and stick with it thereafter. No more name changes and posting as multiple people talking to each other.

        2. sorry admin for the off topic and rude rant, can delete that post if you want since it is really a waste of space. I’m just not going to read comments anymore. You usually post the useful ones in your articles anyways. Good work here, please don’t let the haters deter you. This site is the most useful for specific interest/problem!

  18. I believe @Swoop is right. A full cure is years if not decades away but treatments better than Fin and Minox are close and within our grasp.

  19. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26763726
    An observational retrospective evaluation of 79 young men with long-term adverse effects after use of finasteride against androgenetic alopecia.

    By the ad hoc questionnaire, the most frequent sexual symptoms referred were loss of penis sensitivity (87.3%), decreased ejaculatory force (82.3%), and low penile temperature (78.5%). The most frequent non-sexual symptoms were reduced feeling of life pleasure or emotions (anhedonia) (75.9%); lack of mental concentration (72.2%), and loss of muscle tone/mass (51.9%).

    Thanks admin. Admit it.

  20. Friends, noone expected alopecia areata cure just 2 years ago. Noone expected 91 year old Jimmy Carter’s cancer to be cured by new immunotherapy treatment 1 year ago. Noone expected self driving cars 5 years ago. List goes on and on and on. I recommend reading Ray Kurzweil books. Peace.

  21. @Ty, please. You have just heard it from the horse his mouth man. On the conference, Dr. Tershikh, Dr. Higgins and Dr. Hoffman all deemed to be AGA irreversible at a certain timepoint. Even Dr. Hoffman who is engaged with Replicel.

    Do you SINCERELY think that any researchers who focuses on hair follicle biology would genuinely believe that a cure would arise in the near future? LOL. Man I can’t even…

    The thing is if you would actually start reading studies (which you are capable of I’m sure) you WOULD understand it. You really underestimate the beast of AGA.

    Do you know that Dr. Cotsarelis was way more optimistic many years ago? Do you want to know how he is positioning himself now?

    “Cotsarelis says that in gauging future prospects for alopecia treatment, it’s important to have realistic expectations. “I’d hate to use the word cure, because I don’t think male-pattern baldness can be completely reversed,” he says. “Instead, we’ll develop different treatments, and as with other personalized therapies in medicine, some will work better in various subgroups than others.”

    I’m telling you guys. The hair transplant industry is nowhere to be challenged the coming years in terms of hair restoration. If we are lucky we might replace therapies like finasteride/minoxidil. That in itself will be a huge step. I have said many times 2 years ago already that we are just somewhat a of a pretty unlucky generation regarding all this. Cause the very young generation from now (kids) won’t probably have anything to worry about for the future.

    1. When it is indeed irreversible in a certain point of time, it then has to do with shortening of the telomeres?

      But if you clone the cells from the back with the right DNA and telomeres intact, the problem could be tackled.

      So multiplying is a better solution than trying to revive the old follicles, but we already see that on a daily basis with current useless treatments. No regrowth of old follicles, so we need new ones.

  22. Elbright_Dan

    Predicting technology 40 year ahead is a bold statement, however I’d like to hear your explanation in full if you would you did offer. Do not spare any details please thank you.

  23. this recent paper is relevant:

    A Comparison of the Hormonal Profile of Early Androgenetic Alopecia in Men With the Phenotypic Equivalent of Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome in Women.

  24. Baldness and PCOS are related in some way. I think the earlier you hit puberty, the more likely you are to be nw7 by age 30

  25. @ Elbright_Dan

    They grow cows (=meat) in petridishes from embryonic stem cells + grow factors. By 2020 they probably will be able to produce tons of pork and veil in lab facilities.

    Why would Shiseido not be able to clone our cells and grow new follicles, which could be considered as a life changing non-invasive treatment.

    But a lot of us state we want to see pictures first, so most of us are realists, including Admin.

    1. “Why would Shiseido not be able to clone our cells and grow new follicles, which could be considered as a life changing non-invasive treatment.”

      Because they don’t do that lol. Are you aware of their technology? It’s autologous cell therapy mate. The current pipeline won’t provide you anything that will reverse norwoods. However if Shiseido can get similar results to finasteride.. For instance if they can manage to stay above baseline for 3 years with a bit of regrowth in some subjects then they will have a GODLY treatment that is going to give them much cash and help many people.

      Imagine a young guy that just starts to bald and instead of using finasteride he can go for injections periodically which have a very good side effect profile. That way he can considerably slow down his progression of AGA or actually halt it. Do you think in this scenario anyone would give one damn that you are a NW4 and you want to be NW1? Solely your problem mate, nobody else will lose sleep over that.

      Dr. Tsuji however is a different thing. Hopefully he is going to hit clinical trials ASAP cause that is our man who could truly deliver us something great. But the current pipeline is simply the near future and those are therapies more focused on trying to replace minoxidil and finasteride. Dr. Lauster/Lindner would be up there too but they seem to be in hibernation mode. Still many years away.

      1. Anyway,

        A lot of companies that state they will release treatments (stop hitting on the cure discussion) in the upcoming years, also state they will regrow old hairs or create new hairs.
        Follica, Histogen and Replicel. Their words, not ours.

        Okay no cloning, I misused that word, however they state they will create new ones. Nobody knows if that is true, not even you! You are not working at their lab, nor am I. We are all skeptic.

        Hellouser was very positive about Histogen half a year ago after his interview. Don’t tell me everything has changed now and you and your hlt MATES have turned 180 degrees.
        He liked the picture presented with the guy who had good regrowth in the front.

        I agree, if we can maintain what we have now, HT will help to fill in the spots. That means we still need the HT industry in the upcoming 5 or even 10 years.

  26. @Netshed, agree about making new hair follicles. You are not going to replace a blown up engine either, better to replace the whole damn thing.

  27. I’ve been of the opinion that the closer to the equator your ancestors lived the less likely you are to experience hairloss in your lifetime. I see far more hair loss in Caucasian males than other races. Caucasians are thought to come from much further up north (though we are all thought to have originated from africa due to modern genetics tests) where little grows and fish from the sea was a large part of their diet. Days are much shorter in the colder regions and nights much longer. Caucasians are also far more vulnerable to the harmful effects of the sun than peoples with more pigment in there skin.
    It seems to me that hair loss is the result of evolution picking out traits that are not conducive to living in certain environments. It makes since that in places with less sunlight, more cold and far fewer plants and animals to eat, Caucasians even people of other races that have some Caucasian ancestors are more likely to experience mpb. Less sun equals less pigment in the skin and eyes or the less sunlight the colder it is and the colder it is the more useful body hair would be. Other animals tend to follow this trend so why not human. Environment and resources effect every everything on this planet why should humans be any different.
    I mean to say is Caucasians because of the environment of their ancestors are far more likely to experience hairloss than people with more pigment in their eyes and skin due to being nearer to the equator. I also speculate about the effects this could have on hair loss in the long run as more and more of the world becomes settled and people spend fewer time in and around nature. Thoughts admin?

    I should also say that this blog may well have saved my life. I don’t think I could have made it without this light in the dark, so thank you very much admin. I know this is a common sentiment here.

    1. Wow thanks! Never had someone say that before. I hope you can remain optimistic, at least about life even if not hair.

      I have also thought that perhaps all day indoor modern lifestyles and winter type climates both hurt hair…with my guess being due to less sunlight and vitamin D. In fact I have been meaning to write a post on vitamin D at some point if I find some decent evidence on it.

      One issue that I have with the often mentioned fact that cold climates lead to animals with more body hair is that bonobos, chimps, orangutans and gorillas live in warmer climates yet still have a ton of body hair.

      1. Well, if you come to Madrid having a NW3 here is pretty common, even the women bald slightly. Young and old. Clearly the sun can be good and bad.

  28. @Netshed,

    You’ve got world elite hair researchers telling you what’s up. Funny that they side with me, eh? Maybe ask Dr. Tsuji, Dr. Jahoda Dr. Lauster etc, let’s see what they will say ;).

    Yeah and off course they might have some regrowth, minoxidil does too man. Still you ain’t going to see more regrowth than current therapies can do overall. Castration + 17b-estradiol will still be best. Turning yourself into a more feminine version of yourself. Eunuch lifestyle, it’s always an option man. But even that as we see from observations doesn’t always regrow hair!!!! What a beast AGA is, huh?

    Histogen , Replicel (Shiseido) ain’t going to yield norwood reversal. The pictures of Histogen are telling already. Regrowth and data that is similar to minoxidil. Period.

    Dr. Hoffman;

    ” He said that best candidates for RCH are women and men with thinning hair.”

    Thinning hair doesn’t mean a baldite NW3 temple does it?

    I agree though that a good maintenance therapy would be great aside finasteride. I hope Shiseido will manage to stay relatively above baseline in that 3 year trial… That is what they are aiming at anyway (hypothesis). Couple that with a eventual hair transplant for people who need reversal. That would help many people.

    Peace out boys, remember protect those dear hair follicles from getting slaughtered.

    1. So why is Replicel touting itself as they said in an interview with hellouser as a “functional cure” to baldness and aiming to achieve a “full head of hair” if it is only going to be a maintenance treatment?

      1. Better to listen to the researcher, Hoffman. Truthfully the clinical trials will give the answer, perhaps the treatment will fail as a whole and will never reach the market. That being said if you really think that it is going to reverse norwoods then I have nothing to say but advise you to start reading into hair follicle biology and AGA itself. You’ll quickly change your mind :).

        1. Swoop you have at least 10 comments to this post, and not a single one is related to the subject of the post. Then 10 people reply to you and it goes on in a cycle. You are also purposely ignoring what Dr. Wang said (he is also a world class researcher too) in giving JAKs a 50 percent chance at working on AGA.

          I get that you are 100 percent pessimistic about the cure, but I can’t allow this trend to continue in my posts where so many unrelated comments distract from the original subject matter. Please ignore this post now and hopefully we can hear more from people regarding my inverse correlation theory.

          Same to Paul Pheonix. Please no more Finasteride side effects comments in this post. You made a few and they won’t be missed by readers.

    1. Hard to say. This would vary across individuals. A biopsy would probably do to see if marked fibrosis has occurred that leads to partial or full destruction of the hair follicle.

      This study puts the time frame at 30 months;


      Although I find that pretty weak as observational evidence through case reports for instance tell us otherwise.

      In any way the irreversibly may be at an earlier timepoint too. Studies lately are for instance indicating that senescence might be implicated in AGA.

      “Cellular senescence is a process that results from a variety of
      stresses, leading to a state of irreversible growth arrest”

      1. “In any way the irreversibly may be at an earlier timepoint too. Studies lately are for instance indicating that senescence might be implicated in AGA.”

        With the above I mean before the fibrosis process.

  29. I agree with the admin. Every person I know that is excessively hairy is bald. My dad super hairy became a nw7 at 27. Starting balding at 18. I’m not hairy at all. I got leg hair for a typical Greek but no back hair and minimal chest hair. However I was a late bloomer and just started growing facial hairy around the age of 20 right when I went on Propecia. I’m 100% positive Propecia halted any additional body and beard hair. My beard is super weak. Just some chin hair and patchy on the chin strap. Propecia worked excellent for stopping my hair loss for 12 years. So I may have had lots of body hair but Propecia stopped it. But my dad is a bear, hair all over haha I doubt Propecia could stopped that much body hair from growing for me haha. Plus he had full body hair at 17 he told me. The rest the men in my family are normal body hair amounts with little back hair but they are all balding.

  30. Not sure if you guys know this but Rivertown therapeutics is currently in phase 2 of trials for the hair growth treatment. Plus the director of Rivertown claims that their treatment grows hairs on scalps that have been bald for decades. Sounds pretty good! Who knows if they fast track they could be release in 2018 as well.

  31. @mjones, ofcourse he claims that. It probably grows a little peach fuzz. Anyways, cool that they are in phase 2. Lets see some evidence and decide if its something to look forward to.

  32. @Paul

    It’s pretty much proven that AGA is irreversible in some subjects. Fibrosis leads to marked destruction of the hair follicle, either partly or fully. It’s simply gone in this case.

    Paul, not only me… Dr. Cotsarelis also believes that AGA can’t be fully reversed. Then you have Higgins, Tershikh and Hoffman saying that AGA reflects a irreversible state at a certain point. They don’t understand either?

    Do you understand that lately research is showing some things that are not very good for us? Go look up “senescence” again I tell you. Multiple studies are indicating that senescence may be implicated in AGA. Do you know what it means it pure definition?

    Senescence definition; growing old; aging.

    “Cellular senescence is a process that results from a variety of
    stresses, leading to a state of irreversible growth arrest”

    Yes that’s right the pathway chain of AGA might reflect a accelerated aging process of the hair follicle. In that sense you are literally trying to reverse aging in a sense of the hair follicle.

    Creating new hair follicles is what we need Paul.

  33. I’m not agree at all….but all opinions and “scientific” studies are welcome. When Higgins, Tershikh says that? Show me please… EXACT WORDS.

  34. To stay on subject:

    Almost no body hair, still balding early.
    No systematic medication which could influence it.

  35. I agree with swoop though. Anyways am hairy and NW 7 :)) grew beard at 17 and lost hair in the same year

  36. Dr. Tsuji is probably the only one giving me hope right now. He sounds optimistic that his method should work well in humans. I really think the method he is developing will eventually be the answer. Growing brand new, dht resistant follicles.

    I hope he will manage to overcome the obstacles such as multiplication to create thousands of hairs. I have no idea how likely this is, but Tsuji sounded optimistic saying he thinks he should be able to overcoming them by 2020.

  37. To me it was always logical and clear that “the cure” will be some sort of 1) new hair follicles creation 2) unlimited donor hair transplantation. I don’t think that the picture of some kind of cream that you put into bald scalp and then suddenly you see hair growing can be reality.

  38. i dont believe comments like: a good maintenance will be better treatment than fin and minox. if u can not reverse NW then ur product will not end up to the market sure.,
    no one will fund your research just because ur results are almost same or slightly higher than fin… just forget about it

  39. Swoop,

    so in your opinion, a treatment will never be able to stop mpb. I mean, someone programed to reach the NW7 will only delay the process. No fin, dut, hsc, replicel etc will stop the follicle damage until it”s death.

    Is it right?

  40. Paul Pheonix,

    I use fin for 20 years as i said before. I do believe that it has negative impact on my emotional condition. But i bever had sexual sides. Anyeay, i plan to quit it next year and start CB 03 01.

    Do you think that i will have post finasteride symdrome?

    I”d appreciate any advice. from anyone who read this. I got worried after reading some recent links regarding this subject. I’m afraid that i destroyed my body even not felling the impacts yet.

    Is it possible to recover from the mental damage caused by finasteride?

    Thanks a lot.

  41. Going back to the actual post. I do notice a trend between hairy guys and hair loss and I hate that I’m like weird lower percent. I hardly have any chest hair or armpit hair at least compared to other people and I do have alot of hair under my jaw and my stach is fuller but it’s very light on the cheeks and it really sucks cuz everything is blonde which is actually why my hair loss is so noticeable I think. On the other hand my cousin is like sasquatch body hair everywhere awesome beard soon as he turned like 12 and his hair is thick af still at 22.

  42. If fibrosis occurs and mpb scalps and destroys follicles then why do most mpb males who have been bald for decades still have tiny velous hairs all over their scalp like peach fuzz? The hairs are alive! They are just being kept miniaturized by dht or whatever the fk is attacking it. I myself grew back some terminal hairs along my corner of hair line with Rogaine. It was only 3 hairs but those hairs haven’t grown since I was 19 years old. Completely bald part of juvenile hairline. It came back to life thick long and healthy. I think these researchers claim mpb is fully irreversible because they can’t figure it out how to get all hairs growing again. It’s just a stupid excuse to say because they are failing at their research. I bet one day they will fully regrow our hair and they will say mpb is reversible. It’s all bs. That sonic hedgehog treatment a few years back grew back tons of hair on mpb scalp bit it caused lots of tumors. The hair was reversible then right ? Lol

  43. This is all really interesting. I have been balding noticeably since I was 20 or so (32 now) and I’ve always been hairier than most of my male peers. I always assumed this was due to my half Italian heritage (my dad is extremely hairy) but maybe it does have something to do with androgens. I always thought I inherited my mother’s hair/skin because I am quite fair and somewhat of a redhead (as opposed to my dad’s olive skin and dark hair) but no males on my mom’s side have near the amount of body hair I do and I def take after my dad in that regard…or do I? My hairloss is worse than my dad’s afterall…hmm…

    Fyi I thought that was a photo of Ron Jeremy at first lol

  44. I’m 22, and have i had a buttload of body hair since i was 13. I could grow a full beard by the time i was 15.
    And my hair was perfect, i only started balding (MPB) at 22.
    And guess what? Now that i started balding, my body hair got weaker too, so i’m losing both hair AND body hair.
    I also have a friend who’s a norwood 5 and he has absolutely zero body hair.
    I’m still on the norwood 2 range and i’m a bodyhair ape.

  45. @admin: can u please post an article about this infamous hedgehog treatment? I have read it online also saying it grows tons of hair on mpb scalp. I agree above, if it grows then it must be irreversible.
    how effective was the treatment? did it stop or some research being done still?

  46. 100% sure that there is a correlation between hirsutism and MPB, I myself am testament to the theory. A couple of things I wanted to flag up quickly – follicums MPB treatment both regrows scalp hair and inhibits body hair growth, suggesting a link between the two. Secondly, the DHT theory would make sense but I think it is more the mechanism of what causes DHT sensitivy which could be the problem. Be it allergy, energy metabolism etc, if we crack that, MPB and excessive body hair will be things of the past.

  47. Follica would be perfect – if it actually works.

    We need new follicles and Follica claims to deliver that (at least 20+ terminal hairs per cm2 they say).

    How do you guys rate Follica’s chances of coming out with a successful treatment?

    1. 1/10.

      We know what their treatment is from their latest patent filings.

      It’s dermabrasion plus rogaine. And in some instances wounding plus bimatoprost / latanoprost.

      So you will get maybe slightly improved Rogaine results. And in the studies they discuss in their patents, the terminal hairs died after discontinuation of treatment (only vellus remained). It’s almost totally useless.

  48. @Rafael,

    No we’ll be switching possibly down to treatments that will replace finasteride/minoxidil but will be more safe and more convenient (periodical injections).

    The reversibility of AGA will remain a problem and the pipeline treatments are simply not going to outperform current treatments, maybe by a bit. Nothing more than that though.

    All drugs are going lina recta in the trash can btw. Bimatoprost, JAK’s, setipiprant are done. I know this with >99% certainty. These are drugs that can’t outperform minoxidil/finasteride.

    1. Hello guys,

      I have a question about age of onset of aga.

      Most guys with aga seem to start losing in the early twenties. I rarely read about guys developing aga in their late twenties or early thirties.

      How uncommon is it for men to have zero hair loss and start to lose only at the age of 28 or above?

      1. It’s extremely common. Haven’t you seen many old people who have decent hair but are slightly balding? I would assume they had decent hair for a majority off their lives and started balding later.

      2. I started around 28. Hard to tell at that point. I ignored it because who wants to think they will go bald? By 30 i couldn’t ignore it. Diffuse thining on crown and vertex. Hair line is 99 percent what it was. Now I’m 31 reading the internet for signs of hope and trying to pray the bald away.

    2. @swoop. Minoxidil and Finasteride will be replaced by new drugs with less side effects and more effectivity. It’s easy. Evidence says that…

  49. guys please do not distract admin from my question. @admin: pls tell us know about hedgehog treatment and ur take on this?
    others pls stfu for a sec will ya

  50. @swoop then how can u explain this, i saw a friend of mine regrew his bald crown (for around 15 years bald) using only neogenic (stemoxydine) ? Decent coverage im talking too

  51. @Swoop I have loads of respect for your scientific insight but your simply going too far when your condeming all new possible treatments with 99 % certainty. You of all ppl should know that there is a chance that some of the treatments discussed here actually works. Sometimes even researchers have a hard time figuring out why a drug works in a specific manner.

    1. Can’t reply too much Spanky as we need to stay on topic.

      Anyway… I’m talking about the drugs, bimatoprost, SM04554, JAK’s and setipiprant. Yes, I’m completely sure about those that they are never going to reach the market. I predicted much things accurately in the past like CB dosage, Setipiprant dosage, failure of follicept, failure of bimatoprost in not outperforming minoxidil, highly unlikely that SM was going to outperform minoxidil etc, failure of that swisstemples regimen, failure of setipiprant inducing cosmetic regrowth etc.

      I often went solo with maybe a few people to back me up vs the whole community in these matters. In the end I won on every occasion. Truthfully it wasn’t me that was smart or knowledgeable! Nah, it was me being rational and fighting vs a whole army of emotional people. Easy win for the former.

      The thing is some things are fairly predictable if you can relate to observational evidence, not everything. As such I think all drugs are going to fail indeed, they just won’t have the market value to proceed. They won’t work good enough.

      In terms of Replicel for example I don’t have any observational evidence to go by, hence I can’t make any somewhat accurate prediction of such a treatment. So I’m not talking about every treatment.

        1. After Cosmo gave out the data of the POC trial with a 1% concentration of CB-03-01;


          Everyone argued that CB-03-01 should work at that concentration as displayed by the magnificent data there. I made a stance that the study was extremely weak because of the low N=. Based on the pharmacokinetics of CB-03-01 I said that Cosmo would never trial CB-03-01 at such a low concentration in a subsequent trial as it would be too weak. Indeed, they proceeded to trial CB-03-01 at a way higher dosage 5% twice daily and even these results weren’t that spectacular.

          There was also a mention of many people that CB-03-01 wouldn’t penetrate the skin. Nonensen, as CB-03-01 is small molecule that is low in molecular weight and liphophilic in it’s nature. Therefore it will readily penetrate the skin.

  52. Do not understand why admin does not ban Swoop. How can u let him accuse you of lying admin? U need to read his posts in baldtruth forums..he is there as swooping. Total 15 yr old idiot language and always insulting others.

    1. What is this for troll response? First of all it seems I’m fairly well respected across every community. I have helped tons of people and educated them. What did you do? Yes I have crushed “hopes” of people many times. I do that so people don’t delude them self. Like Dr. Cotsarelis mentions it’s important to stay realistic for the future. But hey I’m sure you’ll get your JAK cream that will miraculously regrow your baldite temples!

      Secondly I haven’t said admin is lying. I just challenged him and understand now that he is a optimist pur sang (not the greatest for making predictions), which is the furthest away from being a realist like me.

      Let’s stay on topic now though. Not going to respond further to anything.

      1. U said admin is lying to readers and does not believe what he writes on blog in real life. You are liar not admin. You are garbage Swoop. Your main points always praise yourself, your great body, how smart u are, how u are always right, how to get chicks blah blah blah

      2. SM04554 have a higher hair growth response than Minoxdil. I always i say that appears. Minoxidil and Finasteride are the past of treatments for MPB. Realistic is this: New treatments with more efficacy and security profile are coming.

  53. Recollecting data about the trial results take between 4 and 6 month. Sammumed will have more trials. The efficacy is proven. Have a good hair growth results. 3 MONTHS: 10% AWESOME. Minoxidil: 2 Years: 12-14% hair regrowth, no terminal hair…a lot of shedding and side effects….Anything else to say….Just saying :)

  54. “Dr. Cotsarelis mentions it’s important to stay realistic for the future.”

    Why is he aiming for a 2018 release then and saying that his method is capable of yielding 100 hairs per cm2? If he is telling us pure lies he can’t then turn around and tell us to be realistic. We’re only going by what he and his associates at PureTech have released.

  55. @TomTom: A lot of competence. He is working in a new treatment like another companies are WORKING VERY HARD.

    1. Yes he should. He would ruin this like he has hlt. Knew it when he first posted here that there was gon b trouble

  56. I was google searching for “swooping hair” and guess what we have here boys –


    “When they ultimately tried to tell people they should be buying from Kane instead, they were rightfully banned. Those people were: marklc2004, ziom1990 and swooping. We would later find out that mark received kickbacks from Kane right around the time his complaining started. And that he recruited ziom1990 and after that swooping to create propaganda for his sake.”

    And as usual Swoop aka Swooping aka any other name he has used is scamming people again with this new business venture –


    What fool would buy any drug or join any group buy with scammer swoop/swooping involved?

  57. Swoop, how do you know setipiprant is done?? You cant just be going by a few low dose independent forum trials, are you?? Or is this just a hunch on your part? I understand the whole realist thing, believe me, but tell us why? If its your personal opinion or a hunch then let that be clear. If you have reason to back it up, let that be clear. That would help a lot and enable others to form a better, clearer opinion. Thanks

  58. I think in general Swoop might be a little too negative on new procedures.

    But the one treatment that people seem excited about but I would be very wary of is Follica.

    I know they cited the 100 hairs / cm^2 figure, but if that was even remotely achievable, (1) the company wouldn’t have taken an inpairment loss in 2013 and lost its initial investors, and (2) wouldn’t use pictures generated by an unaffiliated third party research group from India in its investor presentations.

    2008-2018 is ten years. Taking 10 years to market dermabrasion (already approved) plus Rogaine (already approved) is an absolute embarrassment to science. I don’t care hoe prestigious Cotsarelis is, he simply doesn’t care enough to give us a real treatment.

    I have seen this company spread false hope for 8 years while they had NOTHING proprietary or efficacious. It’s a true shame.

    1. You are right @warby. There is no reason to be pessimistic. We are realistic and we have a new MPB treatments before 2019.

  59. @Warby, I’ve been saying the same thing for good while now. Every time I ask about this Dr. Cots ppl go into a frenzy and demand you bow to The King of HL.

  60. @Jory, you are raging. I feel it. Come on rage mate. I smile down upon you :). You know so little.

    @Tom, I know that through observational evidence. Setipiprant is a DP2 antagonist and there are other DP2 antagonists on the market or have ran clinical trials that are stronger than Setipiprant. Compare it to dutasteride and finasteride. Both have affinity to the 5ar2 enzyme. No single case report or hair alterations have been reported in any clinical trial, case report or subjects with any DP2 antagonist. Therefore the stuff doesn’t induce hair alterations in terms of cosmetic regrowth. I knew that beforehand, before everyone started to use that stuff. That was an extremely easy prediction. Does it maybe somewhat alter hair follicle cycling or shield some damage in the AGA pathway? Possibly.. But that will never be enough to launch to the market. You’ll see. Time will tell boys. In the next 2-3 years it’s all or nothing.

    Regarding this topic of the post of admin, yes it is interesting that he observed many people that are very hairy that also display high norwood status. Androgens can be seen as stimulative for body hair while estrogen can be seen as a negative factor for body hair growth. Estrogen itself seems to be again stimulative for male scalp hair and protective for scalp hair. You can see this reflection in animal models too where estrogen induces catagen in the fur coat of rodents. Not to mention the awesome regrowth we can see in AGA sometimes when people (chemically) castrate them self with additional 17b-estradiol.

    People who suffer from PCOS which is characterized by hyperandrogenism also often start to suffer from an increase of body hair (hirsutism). I wouldn’t be surprised that a correlation could be seen in people with AGA genes who are very hairy that overall would have a higher NW status vs people with AGA genes that are not so hairy. Although the importance of such a correlation is up to question. Interesting nonetheless.

    This picture and observations should speak many words;


    You can see the hair distribution of people here. People with androgen insufficiency syndromes never develop body hair or a beard (circled in red).

  61. Swoop, right or wrong, you are being a dickhead. Not enough to be banned or anything, but your arrogant responses are indeed inflammatory. You might consider being a bit more respectful of your skeptics, as I’m sure you expect respect from those you’re skeptical of. That is, if you intend to get along on this blog. If you’re just getting a high off of pissing people off, then continue with your cocky bullshit; at least then everyone will know.

    All the best

  62. I would be more than happy for any new treatment to come to market. Even if it worked no better than Propecia or Rogaine. Some people lose effectiveness on current treatments or they don’t work for them at all. I know sm, bim, setiprant won’t be a cure but I wouldn’t using them if they stabilize hair loss and gave back 10%. We could use them to stabilize balding for 10 years till something better comes out. So let’s stop trashing current possible treatments before we jinx ourselves and nothing ever comes out. All I know is that if sm were to be released today my problems would be over and I wouldn’t come back on this site. Sorry admin but I mean that in a good way haha. Plus you could probably use a break from my random crazy conspiracy comments haha:)

  63. Since things are going waaaay off topic, I think it’s important to address a couple of issues. First to guy or girl who calls himself Swoop. Please stop stating – as if fact – that certain things in the pipeline are doomed to fail. Particularly Jaks. By all means, be pessimistic and history would be on your side – Aderans and Intercytex anyone? – but things are advancing at an amazing rate in all of science. Not just the science of hair-loss. You are not a scientist.

    You really don’t know for sure and all those fancy scientific terms you throw about are bro-science at its best. Sure it sounds good but does it hold up? You’ve said repeatedly that hair, once lost, can’t be grown back? Yes?

    Yet there is Garza study from last year that proves otherwise and Follica have said themselves that they’ve grown new hair on humans. Actual humans. Now there are plethora of questions surrounding that – how good is the hair? Will it eventually fall out? If so, will you get a full cycle? And probably a few more questions on top of that. It’s good to remain sceptical on that front.

    Neal Walker has a pretty great resume when it comes to science, dermatology etc? What’s yours like?

    I don’t really expect you to pay heed to this. This post is mainly for folks like the commenter above who got great, possibly life saving value out of this blog. Science is moving fast but regulations slow things up. Sometimes for good reason.

    Follica never gave anyone false hope – the NBC news item from 2008 was misleading but that’s not on Follica. It’s on NBC. The false hope was put on them by us. I include myself in that up until a couple of years ago when I stopped deluding myself. It’s all projection. Give me a press release where they say they have a cure? You can’t because they never said that nor did they ever give a timeline…but we have one now. Albeit hidden in some PDF that wasn’t really made widely public. It certainly hasn’t been shouted about by Follica.

    So I would say to folks to be wary of those who are overly-negative and those who are overly positive. Follica is one for the horizon and they have strong science behind it but no one knows yet how good it will be. Their silence says a lot to me. I take it a positive. Some don’t. Matter of opinion.

    Jaks are another one for the future but again, no one knows yet how good this will be.

    Histogen too maybe. But yet again, no one knows how good this will be?

    Be wary of charlatans and do your own background reading. Money ultimately rules everything and that will be the driving force behind finding a viable treatment for hair-loss and the way science is progressing, things will be different in the next decade. Nothing is coming tomorrow but the next couple of years might actually provide a viable treatment for hairloss. Have a healthy dose of optimism peppered with scepticism.

    1. @Mike,

      Indeed I’m not a scientist. But it’s funny that every scientist would align with my view huh? You use a argumentum ad verecundiam, but I even slam that down. I don’t know if you are blind? Stop with pathetic argumentation like that. Dr. Hsu (Harvard) had better credentials than Dr. Walker, better credentials than me and better credentials than you will ever have and probably better credentials than most on this blog. A typical example of a highly gifted intelligent guy, yet that didn’t stop him from thinking that IGF-1 e.coli 10PPM would grow substantial hair.

      A guy just went to a conference and he proposed a question to actual hair follicle biologists and they all deemed to find AGA irreversible at a certain timepoint. You don’t read much do you? And as I have quoted Dr. Cotsarelis too.

      “Cotsarelis says that in gauging future prospects for alopecia treatment, it’s important to have realistic expectations. “I’d hate to use the word cure, because I don’t think male-pattern baldness can be completely reversed,” he says”

      So wait are they bro-scientists too? LOL. Using a fallacy and then even getting destroyed on that fallacy.

      People like you are most annoying, cause people like you discourage the layman people from engaging in science. I know that there are probably readers in this blog that have huge capability and scientific intellect to engage in science. Certainly better than me and possibly better out there than the current elite. Better to stimulate them and let them think that science is accessible for everyone.

      But hey keep underestimating the pathology of AGA like you have actually read one study. Pure bliss ignorance, from your side. You don’t know **** mate. It’s that simple. In comparison to me you know extremely little in terms of hair follicle biology/AGA and certainly compared to the elite.

      I actually am somewhat optimistic that we’ll have therapies that will maybe match finasteride/minoxidil, but with a better side effect profile and convenience factor. That in itself would be a great, huge step forward. However thinking that any current pipeline treatment is going to reverse norwoods is being ignorant or hoping for the almost impossible. You don’t even have one slight bit of evidence which would support that stance. Now is the latter a total certainty? No it isn’t but it’s damn highly likely that it won’t be the case. Miracles do still exist you know. But I’m not a delusional guy who is seeking to get rich by playing the lottery.

      Even I’m scared that I will have to be on finasteride for many years to come, a thing I’m certainly NOT looking forward too.

      Now if you have any shred of evidence then can you present it? Ultimately it’s about evidence huh? That’s when I’ll be dancing naked on the beach. But the problem is you can’t provide anything.

      *Mic drop*

      1. I don’t have any evidence. That was pretty much my point. Nor do you. I’ve seen that Cots quote too. And? Does that dismiss his or Garza’s theories? Plus years of anecdotal evidence. It could turn out be bullshit sure I’m leaning towards trusting these guys. For now. Evidence in humans must be shown.

        Also I don’t claim to know as much as you claim to know. Never have. And I’m all for the lay person getting engaged in science but reading a bunch of papers does not make one an expert. You have a lot to say and I can respect that but you can’t claim anything with certainty. That much you you’ve said yourself.

        I’m holding out on what the experts actually have to show in the next couple years. You know, people who work in the field and contribute to the conversation and science of hairloss?

        I was expecting that response from you. Read you like a book. It was a dull book though. Thanks for playing.

        Stay skeptical of those whose claim certainty folks. Maybe we’re all screwed but I don’t think so. Too much evidence for the wounding theory but time will tell.

        1. Jesus… “It’s funny that all scientists would align with my views huh”?

          Wow—– I urge all of you, after reading this to completely ignore this idiot.

          1. Matt, pls read my coment with 4 key points on JAKs. Swoop is a liar. Dr. E. Wang just gave JAKs 5/10 chance of working for AGA and swoop made sure it was ignored. he is moderator now on HLT forum and told guy to put that KEY sentance at end so people ignore it.

            I guess Swoop’s other nobel prize winning scientist Facebook best friends are spending all day with him in front of computer on forums and blogs lolol How does swoop spend all day on computer doing hair loss research, moderating HLT forum, posting 1000s of comments etc.? because he sells products as his job and promotes Kane Chinese products so was banned from PGH forum.

            After my message yesterday Swoop got scared and today on his HLTforum topical product thread he said price of his product will only be $20 a month hahahahahah. What a crooked. He wants to sell and sell and laugh with happiness because some scientists gives JAK 1/10. Then ignore or cry like baby when another give 5/10.

  64. Cancelled my appointment. Going to be overseas. Will reschedule soon for august or Sept with cots.

  65. Guys, Swoop is the biggest fraud there has ever been on the hair loss forums (in my 5-6 yrs) and now he is here. Why does admin not ban him I do not understand? I am not surprised he was banned from PGH forums. Those guys over there are way too smart to fall for his tricks. All Swoop has done is promote hair loss drugs and sites and vendors for commissions for years.

    Swoop’s JAK lies

    1) First Swoop claimed in a post on hairlosstalk that because Cotsarelis doubted JAKs would work on AGA, he has all the evidence he needs (even though Dr. Brett King thought its possible JAK will cure AGA if used in topical method — Swoop did not discuss that of course). Then admin on this site found a flaw (a big flaw) since Cotsarelis company Follica recently said AGA is autoimmune disease like AA. Then Swoop ignores that and says he has more proof than just the old Cotsaleris statement lololol No comment on the new finding that AGA is potentialy autoimmune condition.

    2) Then when Aclaris CEO spoke first time that AGA will be cured with JAKs, Swoop lies there is ambiguity when it is clear there was none. Forum members correct liar Swoop. He still says he knows more than anyone on JAKs and Aclaris highly respected CEO is wrong and not intelligent. Then Aclaris CEO clarifies again two more times at two more conferences. Swoop is TOTAL moron who did not expect CEO to speak three times, so now finds other excuses since there is no ambiguity in Aclaris CEO statement anymore.

    3) Then Swoop gets the solomon guy with bad English who attended recent European conference to only post his stuff on HLT forum after consulting him. So Swoop posted with smiley face how he knew stuff about the conference before it was to be published by guy who attended. Surprise surprise you can see Swoop’s handiwork in all the published stuff since the guy who attended conference has bad English so Swoop laid out everything very cunningly.

    Below link Rolf Hoffam says JAK = 1/10 to cure AGA, although its not clear since it should say 1 on 1-10 scale (but Swoop somehow knew it was clear he meant 1..hmmmm):


    Anyway, Swoop’s response is as follows: ” Number 1 lol ”

    NOW YOU KNOW SWOOP IS A GARBAGE OF A HUMAN. Which hair loss sufferers laughs in glee LOL at such bad news? Swoop is trash. He wants two things — to keep peddling hair loss drugs, group buys etc…, and to laugh at everyone if JAK is not the cure for AGA and he can say how right he was all along and knew more than all the researchers. He is narcissist scumbag. He has at least 5,000 internet forum hair loss posts and you should read them. You will conclude only one thing — this guy is an extreme money/gym/women/always right minded narcissist who is always correct and knows more than any researchers in the world. He slyly gets money from Kane and many other sellers of drugs as Swisstemples said. A hair loss cure comes and he loses all his income.

    4) Then unfortunately for Swoop, E. Wang a very respected researcher says that the chances that JAK will cure AGA is 5/10. So this time no “LOL” comment from Swoop since he is in tears and sad again as he keeps getting beaten in his tricks. In fact here he made sure the 5/10 rating most important statement in the interview was the last sentence in the thread so no-one could read it:


    Not one comment in that thread from Swoop. No LOL because Swoop is crying now instead. If JAK cures, he will not get his commission from selling drugs and promoting different people selling them. Even worse, Swoop will be wrong and all his proclaimed world famous hair loss researcher friends will not respect him lol He will not get to have steak dinner with them in their labs where he is invited daily lol 1/10 boy.

    Admin you need to talk to PGH forum people and they will tell you all the bullshit about Swoop and his other comrades. Do not ever listen to this guy. He wants no cure and is totally evil sly man. He has used other names beside Swoop and Swooping beleive me.

  66. @Alexey,

    Since you began of that “private-forum” anyway, again let’s you see how uninformed you are. First of all that “private-forum” is actually a forum that consists of extremist (nazi’s literally).

    Swisstemples is a Nazi. He even has a picture of Joachim Peiper on his blog, lmao. He is permanently banned from every hair forum out there. Hairlosstalk, baldtruthtalk, and hairlosshelp. He blackmailed a transgender on hairlosshelp with realising her nude pictures. Every admin out there knows how nasty he is. They recruited people from other forums into their forum

    There is another forum out there http://www.stopaga.com and they are also all aware of this.

    Look here;


    Furthermore Swisstemples has lied blatantly about his baseline pictures on with his so called “pg-protocol” to give you a view that he has regrown his hair with that protocol while in reality his regrowth was due to dutasteride.



    But hey I guess that forum is happy with people like you who buy “experimental” compounds from them with a huge mark-up. Meanwhile they will slander everyone else source out there to be not legit. They are the one’s making money kiddo.

    I could have actually worked already for the hair transplant industry as a consultant for two hair clinics. I refused kid. Want to have a screenshot of my e-mail?

    Just laughable that I wouldn’t want a cure to arise tommorow. I actually give good chances that Replicel will maintain above baseline in many subjects on a 3 year basis. That will be huge.

    Besides how delusional are you anyway? Do you think I have some secret illuminati powers that I can dictate every person or the market out there? That I can dictate the outcome of a experiment? I’m not god lmao.

    But hey yo, keep believing in someone who is a nazi extremist, and who blatantly misguided people while lying about his baseline pictures! The logic is great again!

  67. From mpb and hairy guys to nazi extremist and sex scandals this forum is the sh**!! Swoop I seriously wouldn’t mention your illuminati powers here that information in the wrong hands… I don’t think the admin is doing anything but trying to be a positive beacon with this site. There aren’t a cure for alot of things but I haven’t seen one doctor scientist anyone who says ya we don’t know if we can cure you go home sit in a dark room and sulk about it life sucks pretty sure they all say we should maintain a positive attitude and I’m sure good things will probably happen when we least expect and I speak from experience in that. Thank admin great site really.

  68. Dear poop we all now clearly got the idea that you know a lot about hair science…. people come here for hope even though we know there is little…. so please don’t stress too much …

  69. I disagree farhan. Many of us come here for factual information. Its actually when I see so many people go gaga when a new potential treatment is discovered, that I get turned off. I like the realists here as long as they are not being mean.

  70. You are right tom…admin is covering pretty much every angle here… but being too negative creates a bad impact on lot of minds….

  71. Do you guys think there is a link between acne and hair loss? My face acne has disappeared but I still get bacne at time unfortunately.

    1. I have also wondered about this same question. My face acne started at 13, but back acne didnt start till about 15. At age 19 my face acne was gone, but at 31 I still have it on my back and shoulders. I shower everyday and heard that antibacterial soap can kill good bacteria on the skin. So I only use soap on arm pits, feet, and below the belt. Since I started this the acne is showing up much less. Unfortunately now that the acne is going the hair loss is just starting. I think likely male hormones are at play for both, but how this happens is anyones guess.

  72. Why all this rage on swoop, this is his opinion and he has a scientific background and beleifs, he’s free to express his ideas, instead of attacking him so bad why don’t you argue scientificly with him, he could be wrong, remember 1 year before minox and fin treatments for mpb weren’t seen in scope… So everything is possible nowadays and the researchers in this field are getting numerous…

    Swoop u didnt reply to me about the guy that i know who regrew his bald crown (around 15 years bald with only neogenic stemox) and the theory of irreversibility ….

    1. Well that would be very impressive, surely when it’s only done through stemoxydine. Do you have pictures? I would be interested.

  73. I have also noticed this phenomenon. I am much, much harrier than my brother overall who has much less severe hair loss than I do. He has some temporal recession but not heavy diffuse loss, as his follicular density which I viewed in the sun a few days ago is quite high. I have brown hair and he has blonde hair. It is certainly possible that a single mechanism is making hair all over the body more sensitive to DHT. I should also mention I developed my excessive body hair early, beginning when I was 12-13. Very interesting and reasonable hypothesis in my opinion.

    1. Honestly, I’ll bet I get totally destroyed for writing this, but….as a teenager & into your 20s….did you have a ridiculously high sex drive / did you jerk off excessively?

      I have a hypothesis about it, in very basic terms, high prolactin causes hair loss & hirsuitism if elevated for a sustained period.

      1. Hey GBH, I was diagnosed last month with a prolactinoma, I had triple prolactin levels. I’m one month on 0.5 cabergoline and my prolactin levels went down, still no change in shedding or scalp oil and scalp pain.

      2. I believe there is a strong correlation here as well, not necessarily due to prolactin, but maybe due to a set of hormonal changes caused by frequent arousal.

        1. It’s said that frequent masturbation raises prolactin levels. Prolactin raises the levels of other androgens and this could lead to a chain of events that could cause hair loss.

      3. I had a ridiculously high sex drive when I was 13 to the point where I couldn’t stop getting boners in my pants during school, and it would literally happen at the exact same times of the day every day! But it was almost constant and very embarrassing. A female teacher actually saw me with a boner in my pants one time and we made eye contact and she just scurried away back into her classroom and I was just mortified. This is during the same period of time that I started getting really hairy all over and having a combination of temporal and diffuse loss. But then again who could stop getting hard as a teenager for no reason? It just strikes me that it was in my early teens that all these events coincide. As to my masturbation habits, it varies, but 3x/day is not atypical for me today. But when I took SSRIs years ago I would do so less frequently, and some days might not do so at all. Also interesting to me is the fact that I believe that I was exposed to more testosterone in the womb than my brother as I have a much stronger jaw than him. He has a more well balanced face which is still masculine but not as overtly so. Possibly unrelated, but I thought I’d mention it nonetheless.

        1. Lol… you just explained everyone boy’s adolescence. Who didn’t get a hard on from looking at a brick wall? Or insert any non-sexual reason you got a hard on… It’s part of puberty. Funny now at 30, while I definitely don’t have ED… it just takes a lot more for me to get it up. I remember an ex of mine getting upset because she took off her clothes in a rather non-sexual way and expected me to be ready to go. Plus side to all that is length of sex has increased drastically.

          Back to more of an on-topic subject is… ED isn’t some super obscure problem anymore. And while I have no numbers… I’d bet that there is a good percentage of men who took Fin and had problems that were predisposed to ED… meaning that they would have experienced it either way. And it probably just exacerbated their problem.
          I say this as a person who won’t take fin because of the sides.

          Just some thoughts…

          1. See I think it is the 3X a day which is trigger. There are a ton of neurochemical and hormonal changes which take place upon ejaculation, perhaps self stimulation is worse (1 study shows that it results in much higher prolactin than sex). I had thought about this for a while based on own experience and some chats with friends who I noted were balding, done some research, found a forum called Nofap on which there were actually quite a few anecdotal reports of abstenance and hair regrowth. Tbh I thought it was all a bit stupid, but the more I see MPB being bound with other things, I am getting more curious

  74. Oh and also my hair loss on my head began around that time, really becoming noticeable to some extent when I was 14.

  75. Well said Mike. I am an actual scientist (I have a PhD in physics). Swoop’s ‘scientific’ sentences are mostly nonsensical. Yet he plays on those who may not know that and responds aggressively when challenged. Best to simply ignore. With no responders he will quickly go elsewhere for attention and arguments. Cheers.

    1. Can you share only one single link where he is challenged on his science knowledge…. No? well… Maybe next time we will get the opinion of a scientist who has a PhD on botany.

      1. Read Alexey’s 4 Jakinhibitor points. Swoop is selective and biased. Did not answer to even 1 of those 4.

        1. How do you mean? Off course I’m selective. I have formed my opinion a long time ago about JAK’s. Irrespective of all those scientists their opinion. Yes I lol’ed at Dr. Hoffman rating them 1/10 because that’s exactly what I think too. It’s comical but sad at the same time. In fact I have never been more confident about JAK’s not going to work for AGA. Logical reasoning through observational evidence. Now you may disagree or agree but JAK’s don’t work until proven otherwise. Period. Burden of proof.

          I don’t understand people like you though. I have said it earlier. If you believe in it then why don’t you try to obtain the stuff? It boggles my goddamn mind? A pharmacy is compounding this stuff in the USA. WHY don’t you put all your effort into obtaining the stuff???

    2. Look at the hidden brag here. Bragging about a PhD, lmao. Pretending like you can act of authority because of your “PhD”. Nobody cares dude. It’s about the content not about your useless title, sir.

  76. swoop is king.. regardless if what y all say he needs to stay in this community. what baldtruth did to hellouser, we should never let that happen to others

    1. FYI donitello, your comment did not automatically come through because you are using a different computer.

      Also, I did not answer your earlier comment on the Hedgehog pathway because I was not sure you would check that far back at this point. I was thinking of writing a post on that subject last year and made a draft one with notes that are still stored, but never finished it. Will possibly do so later this year during a slow news week where I have nothing else planned. As someone else said, the cancer issues in animal testing caused that angle of attack to lose importance, but its still an important issue to discuss.

  77. I don’t know why everyone thinks they know what will work or not. Lol. We don’t work for these hair loss companies to know exactly what is going on behind the scenes. What solution really has a chance for regrowth or even market commercial release. All we do is speculate and make up stupid hypothetical comments that make us feel better. All we really can agree on is that we all have to wait to see when a new treatment will be released. It can be follica, or histogen, maybe Jak or replicel, maybe all or none. We don’t know. They do and they keep the important classified details behind closed doors. You guys can talk about PhDs, science and whatever but it doesn’t mean sh*t because none of you including myself work in the hair loss industry or work for these companies. Sorry for sounding like an A hole but there is far too much drama going on in here when most of us are dudes. I can only imagine the cat fights in a women’s hair loss blog haha

    1. Because I refuse to waste 1 minute arguing with the tool. Him baiting me into “making a bet” about JAK inhibitors not working and trying to tell me stuff about “my parents paying for school”. The best solution with a person like this is to simply ignore. If any of you doubt myself or swoop or anyone else I challenge you to read in depth on your own. Irregardless, no one has “picture proof” of JAK inhibitor working on AGA yet, if at all. He thinks it won’t work. I think it will. It’s that simple.

      1. I trust Matt much more than Swoop. Not based on anything relevant but…
        1. Because he seems more level headed.
        But really because
        2. He hasn’t tried to show me his man nipples. (really… wtf swoop… keep your shirt on).

    1. It’s irreversible. Hairs never die unless it’s burned off or scarred up like knife cut or surgery. Look a nw7 scalp under light. You will see tons of velous peach fuzz hairs that was once a field of beautiful thick hair

      1. Once a field of beautiful thick hair… where unicorns ran freely and middle earth was peaceful.

        Sorry mjones… I had to complete your poem.

      1. The ceo said it grows back hair even after decades of baldness. So I’m assuming it would work. Question is how much hair? 5 strands or 3 Norwood thickness

        1. Yes, but I have nothin hair since one month. There is a big difference between hair cycles exhausted and hair fall because DTH, pelade, aereta, auto-immune, etc. When the hair cycle are all exhausted, the matrix cell dead. In Georgie conference 24 to 26 june 2016, experts says that it’s irreversible. It’s very terrible if it’s true. What do you think?

    1. This time last year we saw another start-up company winning awards and making similar claims with regards to hair growth. Despite their big promises apparent honesty, they came and went and the hair loss conundrum persists.

      Until we actually see Rivertown produce something tangible they’re probably not worth getting excited about.

  78. Back to the original topic. Personally I have had body hair from when I was 16 that could cover 10 transplants. Funny thing is as I got older I got hair on my arms – even my f..n biceps. Now, I take a common sense approach. I have read that hair is similar to bone. Arithritis affects the bone. JAK inhibitors show results on AA. However we don’t know about AGA. Let’s put that aside and think in a different angle. AGA and prostate issues are related. Low vitamin D is related to both a healthy prostrate and bone/hair development. My gut feeling (or speaking from my holy arse) is that as we age we get less vitamin d absorption causing natural AGA. For some unfortunate folks it is much earlier due to lack of vitamin D or receptors. The problem though with this theory is / vitamin D as a cure should have shown itself by now. But there is probably another agent acting (some other metabolism or cycle like calcium) . I am no scientist and all my research are by reading bits on the Internet. But just kindling the greater minds here. I sincerely believe the collective effort of many people like us will find the cure. Let’s do it !

    1. Thanks for the interesting comment George. I have read many times about low Vitamin D and hair loss, but was never sure if there is even a remote connection. Recently, several people on this blog have also asked me about this and I will likely have a post on that this year. FYI — I have low vitamin D levels, but am not sure if most balding people do. When I move to sunny climates, my hair loss seems to be less.

        1. A couple of articles ago that the admin posted, I posted some stuff on vitamin d. I don’t want to go digging for it (think it was on the comments from 3 or 4 admin article posts ago) but I will summarize here:

          1. Vitamin d receptor (VDR) is one of the most down regulated genes in AGA scalp

          2. There is an enzyme which is the rate limiting step that converts vitamin d to the bioactive form of vitamin d (aka the form the body can actually use). Vitamin D is essential for mitochondrial function, which is the main source for ATP which is used as cellular energy.

          3. This enzyme also upregulates VDR expression, and is expressed in keratinocytes (what the actual cutical of the hair is made from). It is also known as a positive regulator of kerotinocyte differentiation and also responds to estrogen. Can’t remember where I read this one, but I read that women are much less responsive to fluctuating vitamin d levels than men. So perhaps estrogen has a stabilizing effect on vitamin d and DHT is very sensitive to vitamin d changes.

          4. You get 80-90% of your vitamin D from the sun (maybe a key feature of AGA is actually the top of the scalp getting worse at vitamin d metabolism…. The result? The top of the head sheds hair to let more sunlight in, thus vitamin d, into the skin).

          5. Jak3 knockout ( what aclaris is developing with a covalently bound inhibitor as a topical for AGA ) drastically increases this enzymes expression and activity.

          1. Really interesting Matt. Will try to look through your prior comment later and maybe repaste it here too.

          2. I kind of imagined point 4 – the way I thought was older you get you stay indoors and the body wants to get more sunlight in so you lose hair in a pattern. However it beats me why you would grow hair like a bear on your back . OTOH maybe other parts of the skin think there is too much vitamin d and start growing hair ? Is it that the scalp hair (the ones that are dht sensitive) do not have the ability to sense vitamin D absorption even though there is enough vitamin D which may explain why supplementing d3 is not going to help. Again talking out of my rear end – the actual problem is that vitamin d receptors do not signal the correct absorption rates on top of scalp. I did read somewhere that the body stops making d3 if it has enough.

  79. I had extremely low levels of vitamin d when I was on fin. It has crept up slowly since coming off fin. Definite correlation. Also I noticed that when I supplement with vitamin d that the next time I wash my hair I get ten fold increase in shedding and scalp a little more uncomfortable. I think in my case that it boosts hormones specifically dht and testosterone.

  80. Admin, amazingly, Anil Kapoor, best known for his turn as the talk show host in the movie Slumdog Millionaire, is an exception to this.
    You can check out his pics.

  81. I wonder how Dr. Takashi Tsuji is getting on with overcoming the obstacles he faced for hair multiplication.

    His is the only real game in town imo and his predictions (within 10 years/clinical trials in 2020), are far shorter than almost all the other hair researchers. (For example Claire Higgins thinks 20+ years.)

    Either Dr. Tsuji is optimistic or the others are too pessimistic. However, since he has demonstrated more real, tangible results (albeit in mice but he said he believes it will work in humans too) than the other researchers, I hope his estimations turn out to be correct and this blight can be eradicated by 2030.

  82. Long time lurker and love the site, so I thought I’d comment on this topic as it is relative to me.

    Both my older brothers had thick bushy hair but started to lose it by the time they were 23-24 years old and were bald by the time they were 30. While we all have hairy chests (we don’t have excessively hair legs though), sadly for me, I grew a wonderful (!) thatch of shoulder and back hair by the time I was 22. Even worse, I started to lose my hair before I had turned 19. Granted, I was the only one who grew his hair long but I don’t think that would have been a factor as I’d only grown my hair long for two years. Just as it started to look the way I wanted, it started to fall out. As far as I’m aware, I am the only one from either side of the family tree who has managed to grow the awful “back carpet”. God’s great joke huh? I once had hair halfway down my back, now I have hair all over my back! :(
    Guess I fit into your hypothesis quite well. I am also taller than both by 5-6″ and unlike them, I’ve always been a fatty! If that makes any difference?

    BTW, our father and mother’s father are/was bald so we didn’t stand a chance with head hair did we! :(

    On a side note, my eldest cousin (my father and his father were brothers) is 63 and still has a full head of hair but his younger brother by 4 years was an N7 before he turned 30! They have the same mother.
    Also in my home town I have a set of brothers, one whom is 79 and has the most awesome mane of thick, barely even greying hair, while his younger brother (7 or 8 years younger) has been an N5-6 for at least 25 years! That huge difference in baldness between brothers is such a freak out to me.

    Cheers. K

  83. @Matt,

    Off course you won’t argue with me. Cause your argumentation is weak as hell and I have destroyed your STAT3 ramblings already, which was a extremely weak hypothesis at best anyway. I have already explained that. You can’t bring anything forward…. Well aside from those cute rodent observations :). Your argumentation versus mine is just extremely weak. Gain or loss of function mutations of STAT3 look at them. Compare that to VDR, HR, EDAR, etc. Based on this we can already say that STAT3 doesn’t function a big role in hair follicle biology.

    Now are you going to get this JAK cream or not Matty? I’m waiting… Seems strange to me that a balding kid doesn’t pursue action while in his beliefs an excellent hair growth agent is out there? Jup, that is really a characteristic of a beta male, but I’ll forgive you Matt since you are still a boy. Have fun on your summer camp! Don’t forget to hydrate yourself!

    I repeat who is going to get this JAK cream? I’m looking mostly at the people who believe in this angle?

    1. Farhan what makes you confident about Brotzu’s lotion? I know that Dr. Brotzu said it can reverse years of hair loss, but that seems quite outlandish…

  84. Hey Swoop,

    Do you have an inkling how Tsuji is getting on? What does he have left to figure out before human testing, is it how to multiply the “germs” in sufficient amounts to cover a whole scalp?

    If he could only replicate on a human what he did on those mice, times a couple of thousand. Deal done!

    1. Hey Tom,

      Not the specifics. He said;

      “As you pointed, the problem of our project is the expansion of stem cells in the bulge region and dermal papillae. In these problems, the expansion of epithelial bulge stem cells is critical issue. Thus, we are now trying to expand the stem cells.”

      So I assume that is near completion.. And he also said that he is aiming for a human clinical trial in 2020… So that might mean that he will be engaging in pre-clinical trials soon.

      I hope he will get there as soon as possible. In my view he is the first contender to possibly really establish a “cure”. RIKEN is cutting edge. If anyone will be able to do it it’s Dr. Tsuji imo.

      1. Hey Swoop,

        How difficult do you think expanding the epithelial bulge stem cells will be for Tsuji and his team? Is it something considered unimaginably tricky or has it been achieved by other scientists before? I like that the Doctor said somewhere “we will overcome these challenges”. That sounds positive, but I want to know the chances of success or failure for this.

        Also, does Tsuji yet know how he will multiply the cells in high enough amount to reproduce a high number of follicles?

        Maybe Tsuji says 2020 because he figures that’s how long it would take to solve the issue of epithelial bulge stem cells. I hope they don’t see it as the final deadline for solving this issue before they shelf the project.

  85. First of all love this blog, I’ve lost 75% of my hair (20yrs old)
    This blog gives me hope. I really hope there’s is going to be a cure/treatment in the next decade :) and guys… being nearly bald at age 20 is not a funny condition trust me, be thankful to experience hairloss at a more advanced aged (no offense)

    I’ve been following this blog for the past 6 months now and I feel the need to share this (sorry @admin)


    I’m 20 years old man and I can tell by the way you respond to others that i’m more mature than you are. You are by far the most arrogant person I have ever encountered and that doesn’t serve you. Your language is shockingly impulsive and aggressive

    “Now are you going to get this JAK cream or not Matty? I’m waiting… Seems strange to me that a balding kid doesn’t pursue action while in his beliefs an excellent hair growth agent is out there? Jup, that is really a characteristic of a beta male, but I’ll forgive you Matt since you are still a boy. Have fun on your summer camp! Don’t forget to hydrate yourself!”

    This paragraph in your last comment is beyond any level of stupidity, because it doesn’t serve any purpose but to directly attack the person you are talking to… dude, a 14 year reacts in such ways… not an adult.

    So please, your knowledge is R E A L L Y H E L P F U L L , but stop thinking you are the smart one, because if you were, you wouldn’t take so much pleasure in proving it on a f** blog about baldness,

    I understand that a cure would serve all of us (me included), but people… hair is JUST HAIR. You’re facing a problem which has a simple, costless solution : acceptance goddammit
    You can choose to just ignore that aspect of your life, whereas someone with cancer just can’t choose to simply ignore his condition.

    I find it awkward that it takes a 20year old french boy to remind you that… hairloss isn’t life threatening :D :D :D it’s just a pain in the ass

  86. @swoop

    Even if you are right about JAK’s (and I think you are), you’re wrong in the way to word it… the way you express your point is very very very immature
    grow up…

  87. Hi Guys,

    Just a little update on liposomal finasteride gel from H&W.

    I have been using it for around a week now and I haven’t felt a single sign of it going systemic.
    I apply it at night before going to bed and shower in the morning

    Bear in mind that I tried oral fin twice and quit both of the times due to sides.
    Once I got was unable to sustain an erection for a whole week and the other time I got brain fog almost immediately after starting which made it very hard to concentrate in college.
    (Don’t worry everything came back to normal 2 weeks upon discontinuation)

    I had an initial blood test for DHT before starting and I will do another one in 2-3 months to ensure that it’s not lowering my DHT systematically.
    I might also order a scalp analyzer device to closely monitor the progress of the hair.

    I think this news is pretty encouraging and if it proves to be effective without going systemic, this is a true blessing.

    As a side note, for god’s sake guys please stop being pessimistic and whining at each other.
    We’re all in the same boat and pessimism doesn’t help anything.
    As steve jobs said: ”the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do”
    Let’s get along and work with each other with a positive attitude to solve that *#** AGA puzzle to make baldness history.
    I am confident it will happen. In the mean time, this website gives us hope, which is huge


  88. Guys at the end of the day every one here is hair loss sufferer… we shouldnt let our selves down or even get our hopes too high…just keep updated with what our wonderful admin is providing with..what rest say is crap…bcos no one is a scientist here…guys i watch a lot of videos about rockets … that doesn’t make me a rocket scientist …

  89. @Saleen, thank you very much for the update. Please keep updating! I think im gonna order from that italian place who makes it in Europe. How much did you pay for a months supply?

  90. BHT most definetely the way to go and the only thing that can bring high norwoods back to nw1. People should strongly consider it as a option, i recommend using only beard grafts,if you have a full beard and untouched donor hair in the back of your hair do yourself a favor and get started on fue 2-3 procedures and you wont have to worry about hairloss ever.

  91. Really appreciate ur scientific comments swoop but u should work on ur temper and childish replies …

  92. Not sure of the correlation between head and body hair but there is a correlation between swoop being so critical and immature and people responding to him. He thrives off arguments and abusing people. Zero interaction will mean zero swoop. Just ignore.

  93. @Paco,

    I understand that I’m immature and come over as arrogant. I Just dislike ignorant people like Matt. Also there was a message behind that alinea. I simply can’t understand how someone would be such a believer and subsequently doesn’t grab the opportunity when it arises.

    Anyway respect to you for handling the issue that well at 20 years of age. I have said many times that I feel privileged in comparison to the really young guys out there like you who have extensive hair loss at a very young age. I certainly consider myself very lucky Paco. I was a NW3 at age 24, it could have been way worse.

    Good luck to you and thank you for the constructive criticism Paco.

    To everyone else please understand that even in the near future the reversibility of AGA will highly likely still prove to be very difficult or simply not possible. Therefore if you can, look at current options too if you haven’t done already. Looking at the future without any thought of not undertaking action currently, because you are confident that something greater may arise, could prove to be a huge mistake. Years pass by fast and you only live once. Remember that.

    I’m the proof of that among other countless people;


    The picture above isn’t “hope’. It’s the result of taking action. u

    I’ll stop posting now as I have made my point more than clear and it’s becoming too much of a one man show. I’ll comment once in a while though :).

    Good luck everyone and let’s hope we’ll get better treatments asap.

    Later, Swooping out boys!

    1. Yes Swoop please take a break from commenting here now for the next few posts. Thereafter you are welcome to add in your educated non-insulting non-bragging opinions on suitable occasions, but I do not have time to monitor the comments for hours a day and it seems like each time you will post a comment there will be many people attacking you. If you do post a comment please make sure it applies to the post being discussed or entails something very new and interesting (e.g., start of a clinical trial, new company, new study etc…) that I need to know about.

      I also prefer your not coming back just to laugh and say “I told you so” each time some treatment fails or each time some of your scientist friends give you discouraging news. Vast majority of treatments will either fail or never reach commercialization and we just hope that several succeed.

      Readers who wish to ask Swoop any questions should join hairlosstalk forums and ask him directly. I post links to that forum all the time on here and Swoop is on there every day. He is also on bald truth talk forums (as Swooping) as well as on hair restoration network forums. He can list other names of forums too if I am missing any.

  94. @Admin, I prefer people not to ask me questions.

    Read yourself boys. Get educated on hair follicle biology. You’ll quickly understand the extreme difficulty of reversibility in AGA. Said that a thousand times already. 17b estradiol + eunuch lifestyle, you ain’t going to get better than that in the near future. Get used to that already. Ciao.

    1. Judging by the number of questions you replied to on here and on all the hair loss forums for several years now, I would have guessed that you love to answer questions Swoop! I guess I am really bad at reading you.

  95. Eunuch lifestyle i understand this as a mockery to hair loss industry… And yes it’s a shame. New pathways about hair loss(MPB) are discovered and the knowleadge about hair follicle cycle and “etiology” of androgenetic alopecia are BETTER than 5 years ago, A lot of treatments in the pipeline, clinical trials… the real results will be available soon. More good news are coming.

  96. @Swoop for a guy that is so certain on the lack of future for a hairloss cure you spend much time posting and reading on forums and blogs. If it’s this fruitless, you can feel free to move on.

    Personally, i don’t disagree. I believe there won’t be an exact cure and that some of the problems are to do with ageing and cell death. But, there are incredible things happening in the science world with stem cells. The other day i saw a kid have a nose transplant from a nose that was grown on his own forehead. They’re talking of growing donor organs in pigs.

    Things are happening, stranger.. weirder things to comprehend. If they can grow an organ in a pig to transplant into a human, i’m sure they can grown the hair organs in our temple areas.

    At the end of the day it’s a disease a defective gene somewhere which is culpable for early on set of balding. Some men/women have it, some dont.. Balding is also genetic, but in your 20-40s there is something thats not right.. its a disease. Diseases can be cured.. there is some real nasty ones that are being cured right now.

    1. They just need to take hairs from the back of the head, manipulate and multiply these cells and re-inject them to regrow new hairs in normal density. Like Tsuji is aiming to do.

      This will be the “cure” at the end of the day. Not fixing existing hairs.

  97. JAKs will do something, the study will help us learn more on how it effects hair growth. That could be key to unlocking a cure, will it be the cure? Maybe not, but it’s progress.

  98. Guys listen I know im off the subject here however I believe it is very very important that we have some guys from this forum enroll in the setipiprant trial that supposedly going to recruit soon. This way we can get immediate feedback instead of waiting three years!!!! I believe this is my only shot of getting my hands on a possible effective treatment within the next three years. Please dont turn this into “if everything goes perfect we will have other options in two years”. I dont have two years. My hair going super fast without meds…which I cant tolerate. Thanks

  99. I agree with breezy. Clearly JAK has a positive effect on hair follicles. Maybe it will not work as well on AGA, but maybe it will work even better. Who knows. I am sure there is something to this though. Hopefully we get some answers soon. I want to be myself again lol.
    I am especially interested in this new Aclaris team working on the topical that apparently regrows hair that has even been dormant for decades due to AGA. It even re-pigments the hair strands? That to me means the hair follicle is quite healthy again, and if it can do that i would assume it should work well. I feel like within the next few years we are going to have a snowball like effect of treatments coming our way. More and more companies seem to be throwing their name into the hat with all the new discoveries regarding mpb, and its going to be like a race to the finish. Seems to me there has been more progress in the last year or two than in the last 20.

    Good post admin! Thanks for putting an end to the unnecessary arguing. Starting to get annoying scrolling through 100 stupid posts to find something of interest.

    1. Watch the next approved treatment be dutasteride haha. That would be a huge kick in the balls for all of us. Plus you know GlaxoSmithKline will make it so hard for any other treatment to hit the market for mpb. They are a beast of a pharmaceutical company!
      In all seriousness though I think we will have a couple new treatments to hit the market. Follica as a new surgical option and maybe histogen, SM for a new drug. Or we could use Jak off label when they release it for Areata. All I know is that we need something ASAP! My hair is just getting worse each month. I’m exhausted of waiting since 2001. I just want to wake up one morning and see a commercial on TV advertising a new fda approved drug for mpb.

    2. Rancid that company that grew hair back after decades is not Alaris. It’s riverside pharmaceuticals. Yes I agree though it sounds promising

  100. everytime i revisit this blog i realize it’s just people encouraging or discouraging one another to hope or not to hope. Then some bro science. Then some theories that don’t matter.

  101. Hi gang!
    I started Tofacitinib 50 mg in DMSO topic form today (6 july). I will keep you informed.

    1. Good luck to you but others before you have tried and failed. Have you made any difference in your compound?

  102. Swoop,

    You said a pharmacy in the US was compounding tofa? Was that on a doctors order or what? I’d be down to trial it and I’m waiting to get on a gb as well. I have my doubts, but at this point, what the hell. Tried everything else to get rid of inflammation lol. Last resort is cyclosporine

  103. A weird post was just on my google I thought I’d show since I know axe just released their waterless shampoo 2 and a half years ago that I specially on early work days waking up late would use (really convenient smelled good kinda gross tho really) and my mpb started rapidly 2 and a half years ago on the dot facebook pictures confirm. So if any of you have some might wanna reconsider… http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/07/the-unfortunate-reality-of-dry-shampoo/489989/

  104. @William,

    50mg? Make baseline pictures please. That’s a insane concentration and dosage. Be careful. If that doesn’t work it’s JAK’s in the trashcan. That will most definitely saturate every JAK (1, 2 , 3).


    Yes a pharmacy compounds it. You’ll still need prescription though so find someone who can work with you. There you go;


    Can you discuss it with your doctor? Show him the upcoming trial of Aclaris.


    Let’s figure this out. Be a leader. Many can’t grab the opportunity it seems and you are 60/40 so….Make your next post about people who can trial this stuff? I was thinking of also asking Christopher01, he suffers from Vitiligo so he should obtain this compounded cream easily. What do you think? I can make posts on forums informing people about this. You make a post on this blog. Simple we’ll get to know within months if this works or not instead of years ;). What do you say, admin?

  105. Correct me if im wrong but did they not say that an important thing about topical JAK is how it is absorbed into the follicle? I may be dreaming but I was under the impression that this is a very important aspect of their research and thats why its not as simple as making our own compounds to smear on our scalps to see if it works…

    1. The stuff I´m talking about is a compounded cream Spanky straight from the pharmacy in a liposomal base.

      `Dr. Sidbury has a compounding pharmacy make topical tofacitinib 2% in a liposomal base, which achieves better penetration than Versabase. He recommends Chemistry Rx in Philadelphia for compounding.`

  106. @bw

    I will look for more information on the compound (can you tell me what kind of information is significant for the compound?). I’m not a expert.

    I’m a very good contact. The product comes directly from a company that makes the drug . The Tofa is not cut . This is the optimal quality and not what we find on the black market or internet quality.


    Jak3 ? I’m not an expert. Can you explain to me?


    Motif: Diffuse medicinal alopecia (Prozac, Risperidone, Concerta at VERY high dose during 14 years). I HAVE NOT A AGA !!! Approximately 5 hair/cm2. The hair are very very very very very thin. Whole head is affected.

    I use: Tofa 50 mg in DMSO.


    Yes, I will post pictures and informations at Hairlosstalk (english forum) and Hairlossforum (french forum).

    You say: “That will most definitely saturate every JAK (1, 2 , 3).” I’m not a expert, explain me please.

    My topical form is liquid and not a cream (as Chemistry Rx). Is it bad or insignificant ?

    What do you think that is better for me: 2X by day or only one application by day?

    My itching were multiplied by 10 yesterday when the first application in evening. It’s normal? I will applicate second application today.

    1. Swoop you dumbass they said only one type of JAK works (JAK3 only in covalently bound format, JAK1 and JAK2 won’t work). Even the company AClaris and Christiano are not yet sure about the carrier and exact delivery method and you expect some local pharmacy to figure it out? Has there ever been a bigger idiot on this blog than you Swoop??? You are making people risk their lives with this. These are no jokes of a drug…they could cause cancer. What a moron. Admin ban this fool befor he causes someone to do this and get serious side effects.

      1. Wait are you sincerely saying that I make people risk their lives with this? You need to visit a psychopath. I asked Christopher to discuss this with his doctor. You should be banned for your language.

        Anyone trying JAK inhibitors should discuss it with his doctor including William.

        See admin? Look at that language.

        1. Swoop, you e-mailed me several days ago and said you were going away:-) I said come back on rare occasions.

          And no I am not going to try JAK inhibitors, and I would recommend all blog readers to avoid trying them either for now please.

          I very much doubt any reputable doctor will let you take JAKs for AGA, but you can try getting a consultation with Dr. King or Dr. Christiano if you are really willing to try and risk it. They probably know more than anyone else in the world about this stuff and potential side effects.

  107. I don’t know why people are still trying to make their own Jak still. It hasnt even begun trials for AGA yet. We already have had someone try it witout results. We still do not know what vehicle to use and what % etc. From what I remember it wasnt even really about penetrating the skin, it was finding a way to anchor it to the follicle. Im sorry but just buying Jak inhibitors and mixing them into something and slapping it on your head is not going to give us what we want. We need to know exactly what they are using, at what percent, with what vehicle, and anything else that goes into the drug. Imo you are just setting yourself up for disappointment, and then we are going to have to hear from the “anti jak” crew again saying I told you so. Not to mention, if your hairloss really isnt AGA and rather drug induced loss, whether you get results or not doesn’t tell us anything about whether or not it will work for aga.

    1. That’s why we need someone to use that specific compound cream from that Pharmacy ;). That way there will be no doubt about the legitimacy and about the penetration of the compound.

      1. Lol advising readers to spend $300 a month for a cream from unknown pharmacy when even Alacris does not know for sure how best to make the topical yet. We have Darwin award winners in this blog truly.

        1. Hahahaha. So that means that there is not any indication of JAK working for humans right? Only the rodent model? Thanks for confirming. God you made my day.

          Mate your hair follicles are D O O M E D. There is not going to be a cure short term. You are a delusional ape, together with some other people here.

          Keep waiting bro. Remember years are flying by!

          @Admin this is my last post here. Speak to me when we approach 2020. I’ll buy you a new domain name hairlosscure2025.com by that time, cool?

          Some pure beta cuckolds and delusional peeps on this blog haha. People like you around here don’t even deserve a goddamn cure, let’s be honest about that.

          To some other people here I feel for you guys. Hope the best for you but I would keep your expectations extremely low for the near future!

          Ciao! Swoop.

          1. Btw this:

            “Some pure beta cuckolds and delusional peeps on this blog haha. People like you around here don’t even deserve a goddamn cure, let’s be honest about that.”

            Was not directed to you admin, but the guy above and some other peeps. Anyway this last and final post.

  108. Whoever puts jak on their heads is a moron for two reasons.

    1) You messing with your immune system and possibly your life. If this gets in your blood stream there could be severe side effects.

    2) A few people tried it already with no results. We don’t know the exact vehicle and how to mix it. Only Aclaris knows I think. Plus you are wasting your money

    1. I can not accept my baldness. I am paralyzed with the idea to start this fall the university. Suicide is my only option to avoid shame . So , even die, so try something despite the risks.

      1. Its ok to try if you have access, just keep very close watch to any reaction or color changes to scalp skin. You will surely succeed, GBU!

      2. William get on Propecia bro! It’s proven to work and it will stop you from balding for at least 5 yrs. Don’t bother with jak you will just waste time and more hair. DON’T COMMIT SUICIDE! trust me dude get on Propecia. Even if you get sides just ride them out. It’s better to get a bit of erectile dysfunction for a month than to kill yourself. Go to a dermatologist get an rx for brand name Propecia and stop your hair loss. Sht you might even get good regrowth since you are young. I started at 20, diffuse thinner, I filled in my diffuse hair and stabilized a nw1.5 for 14 years. I have aggressive mob genes. All men in my family are nw5-7 bald by 27.

        1. mjones, nice advice! But I don’t think he will be able to handle ED, if he is not able to handle HL. Hope he gets same success as any AA candidate. This is just a phase in his life, he will surely enjoy life, but needs to be sure, not to spoil health just becoz of current situation.

          1. Thanks PK! I try my best haha. He should definitely try Propecia. He may be one of the many who don’t get sides.

          2. Don’t take Propecia. Don’t listen mjones and PK they want only money they don’t care about your health.

  109. Admin, I am restraining myself from cursing out Paul Phoenix due to respect to you and this website but can you please tell Paul to stop using his scare tactics on young forum members from using Propecia. Propecia works for many without sides and works well for those who have sides.
    @ Paul phoenix! No one is making you take Propecia dude! I’m simply telling the kid it can halt his hair loss. I mentioned to him there are sides. He is an adult and he will weigh out what he wants to do. However you have no right to accuse me making money from Propecia you moron. I don’t work for merk. I’m simply trying to help the kid save his hair through his 20s. Just because you are nw7 and miserable don’t scare people on here from using Propecia that could end up working really well for him. Plus, do you honestly think the new treatments won’t have sides hahaha. Jak will, SM will, histogen will. These all manipulate wnt pathways of cells. Who knows this stuff might cause cancer and that’s why they are taking so long to start phase3. Or they may have other sides. It’s a drug applied to your body. They all have sides. They may not tell you now but if it gets released they won’t tell you for years so they make their profit. How many commercials do you see on TV where lawyers advertise getting settlement payments for people who used pharmaceutical drugs where the companies downplayed the sides. Stop saying new drugs are safer and Propecia is bad. All drugs are bad. You try them and see how well you can tolerate it. If it’s bad you quit it. Plain and simple

    1. I tried Propecia during two years (2014-2015) and I had not results (not stop fall, not growing hair). I took 1/4 of pill by day. It’s the good dosage? With 5 very thin hair by cm2, I really need regrowth of hair. If not, the little bit of hair on my head is insufficient. Maintenance is insufficient. Also, I think that Propecia can be effective in some AGA mostly when it’s a DHT problem. I’ve not AGA… I don’t sure of my affirmations. Correct me if im wrong.

      1. William, if you don’t have AGA then you shouldn’t be taking Propecia. If you do have aga them you should take recommended dose of 1mg daily.

        1. I know. The dermatologist that prescribe propecia to me is a f*cking moron. In 2014, I didn’t have as much knowledge as today.

        2. According to many experts (including those at the conference in Georgia 24-26 June ) , if my hair cycles are almost all exhausted (as in some AGA) , I have no chance to get my hair. In contrary to pelade and auto-immune alopecia (alipecia aereta), the exhaustion of hair cycles is irreversible. Do you think I have still a chance to get out. Do you believe that my cells are exhausted and dead forever?

          1. William , I recommend you visit a trichologist who can examine you scalp very closely, maybe you have hidden inflammation that can be treated. By no means be desperate, you will find a good solution, and life will bring you lots of happiness, just keep going

    2. I’m with Paul. Why take something that’s only gonna slow the loss down. It’s gonna b 2017 soon. We should’ve had a cure or an effective treatment by now. Sad

  110. I know. The dermatologist that prescribe propecia to me is a f moron. In 2014, I didn’t have as much knowledge as today.

  111. I don’t agree with that theory of mpb sufferers hair loss is iriversible. Which dermatologist said that at the cobference? Why do people who are nw5 grow tons of hair to be a nw3 with Rogaine alone. Yes it’s a once in a blue moon success story but that person had hair cycles that have been exhausted and kick started again. I grew back terminal hairs that were gone since I was 19 that got kick started with Rogaine . I think 90% of these researchers are idiots and don’t use common sense. I mean it was just recently one researcher said hair follicles are still alive but just miniaturized on the scalp. Didn’t one of these morons actually look at a bald guys scalp. You can see with the naked eye the follicles are miniaturized but still there. This is the true reason why we don’t have any treatments. Our hands lay on dumb scientist and crooks who sell effective treatments to the highest bidder to only be shelved and to not see the light of day

    1. Your regrowth with minox are terminal? Fall hair in AGA is because many reason. Sometime, hair is blocked and can’t finish hair cycle. Minox or other treatment deblock hair but if the hair blocked was in 24th cycle on 25th, the hair don’t regrowth terminal and it rest just 1 cycles to do. Is my theory.

      Me nothing my hair are terminal. When hair is very thin. it’s because hair cycle are almost exhausted.

      I don’t sure of my affirmation.

      All expert say that it’s irreversible when all hair cycle is exhausted. When the hair fall for the last time and he is miniaturized, the matrix cell dead. See hairlosstalk section of Conference Georgia.

  112. I definitely think there is a strong link between MPB and body hair. How could there not be if androgens cause the development of secondary male characteristics such as body hair and puberty changes? Men with MPB have higher androgen levels IMO then men without which triggers the excessive body hair. Largely is part genetics too
    I think if you did hormone panels you would find excessive body hair guys have much higher DHT/T then other men IMO which is why they have bad MPB.

    1. But it seems like balding men do not have more testosterone than nonbalding men. I am curious if they have similar DHT levels or not.

      1. Admin, I think it all has to do with the sensitivity of hair follicles to dht and not the levels. I’m sure there is a link to really hairy guys and balding but not all hairy guys are bald. However all men dht sensitivity are bald or balding. We really have a complicated condition. I wish our donor hair would rejuvenate on its own. We could all get fue and be done with it. Like every time you get an fue, the donor hair would regrow and you go back for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th mega session and be done with it. It’s like mother nature made mpb the curse for mankind with no solution

      2. Wait a second how do we know that T levels are the same between balding and non balding men? That link saying its not true never proves anything or gives any real numbers. It just goes through the history of MPB showing DHT is more important which it is. No one has ever really even proven that MPB is 100 percent caused by only DHT and that T is not involved at all.
        I guess I feel its not a solved question, but I would agree DHT is the major factor even if T is a minor player so it seems hairy men would have a lot higher DHT.

  113. I have had the unfortunate experience in the past year or two of suddenly getting a ton more body hair . I have no idea why. I am not on any new pharmaceutical drugs or any PEDs. I was on Avodart from 2002-2010, but never had a change in body hair before, during, or after Avodart.
    I am back on Finasteride for the first time since 2002. No reduction in body hair. For the record, I’m 51. Maybe I’m experiencing a 2nd puberty.

  114. jules – for 2 reasons:
    1) my insurance company was mistakenly paying for my Dutasteride for years – they thought I took it for prostate issues, not hairloss issues. Suddenly, they sent a letter saying I would need to switch to proscar if they were going to cover any such drug. So it was way too expensive to continue
    2) After being on Dutasteride for about 8 years, I suddenly was getting prostatitis-like symptoms. While I don’t believe Dut was causing it (since I was on it so long with no issues), I wanted to get off it for awhile to see if things got better.

    My finasteride is $99 for a 90-day supply at Walgreens (GoodRx coupon). I can handle that. I’ve been on Rogaine since 1988! Also doing the Hairmax for about 10 years.

  115. I like Swoop / Swooping. He even has the balls to correct esteemed doctors such as Dr. Karadeniz and Dr. Feller (see below two links and his posting in those linked pages) when the doctors are wrong and most people let doctors get aways with it. We need people like Swoop on here.



  116. From: American Academy of Dermatology Association, June 01, 2012 Interview:
    Dr. Van Voorhees: Why do you think there’s that threshold where miniaturization becomes non-reversible?
    Dr. Cotsarelis: That’s an interesting question. There might be other genes downstream of testosterone playing a role. We already know that if you inhibit testosterone that hair doesn’t revert once it’s completely miniaturized. The fate of the hair follicle is determined very early on during development; there’s patterning, that’s why you have follicles responding to androgens on the top of the scalp and in the beard area in completely different ways. Androgen receptors are set up very early in development; I think the more we understand about that patterning the more we’ll likely be able to figure out what’s going on with hair loss.

  117. Why do Men with Excessive Body Hair Bald Much More Frequently?
    this is not true.
    This is like saying “Men with deep set eyes Bald Much More Frequently”, or “Men with big belly Bald Much More Frequently”., “Men with higher education Bald Much More Frequently”…..
    Most of Caucasians have excessive body hair, of course what you observe is most bald people have excessive body hair, it’s just a matter of probability.
    While in Asia, what you observe is most bald people have little body hair, because most of them are not hairy.

  118. Why end male pattern baldness? It is not an illness in need of a cure. Other than losing the hair on top of our head, it doesn’t hurt, as there are no other symptoms. It is a natural, normal inherited trait. We fear it because we are taught to believe no one likes the looks of it and it gets only bad press.
    Back in my senior year of college several of my classmates, all still in their 20s, were going bald. One went bald in about one year. They all had the typical male pattern baldness, losing their hair on top of their head, leaving just a fringe on the side and back. We were all surprised and the rest of us guys checked to see if we, too, would go bald. My reaction to it disturbed me. It didn’t make sense. I became insanely jealous of them. I found that I wanted to go bald. It was an irresistible urge. I shaved my hair off, but that did not satisfy me. I hated the ‘hair shadow’ effect and I hated the stubble that would grow back just hours after shaving my head. I wanted male pattern baldness. I really, really wanted to lose the hair off the top of my head, like those classmates. My hair did recede a little at the temples, but when there was no follow-through and I didn’t continue to bald, I was deeply depressed. For decades after my wife and I were married, I would periodically check to see if my hairline was receding, hoping and praying for signs of balding. Finally, in my early 50s, my wish came true. My hair began to rapidly recede and thin out. I panicked, fearing my wife would hate it. Instead, she was thrilled and begged me to just let myself go bald. I didn’t have to be begged and nature made short order of my hair. In less than two years I was totally bald on top, with only the usual ‘horseshoe’ fringe around the sides and back. I was finally male pattern bald and deliriously happy about it. That was 20 years ago.
    I suspect I am not alone, nor is my wife. I believe there are many men who eagerly anticipate going bald and many men who are disappointed when they don’t go bald. I also believe there are countless women out there, who, like my lovely wife, prefer bald men to men with a full head of hair. Let’s keep the male pattern baldness option available for those who want it. And a ‘cure’ or prevention for those who don’t want it. Had there been a safe to use supplement that promoted and accelerated male pattern baldness available to me, I would have eagerly taken it immediately after my wife and I were married 40 years ago. Going bald has been one of the best things that ever happened to me. I absolutely love male pattern baldness. So does my wife. She keeps telling me how sexy it is and she loves kissing me on top of my shiny bald head. What a turn on!

  119. I don’t agree with this at all! So debunked. Smh I been having body hair since I was 13 years old, plus grew facial hair at that early age. I’m talking very thick full beard, full chest and full stomach hair plus on my back and shoulder since I was in my late teens. Which is crazy :( I have hair all around 360 degree from chest to neck and very annoying which I’m planning to do laser lol lol and still I have full head of hair no receded hair line either been the same since I was 17/18ish and I’ll be 30 soon and everyone think 19-22 no matter how thick my beard but I think shaving does make me look so young I think genetics are very complex and to assume that hairy men go bald is just plain false to me. There’s people that are naturally smooth that goes bald!

    1. Please do not do that! See your body hair as a genetic gift! It is so incredibly sexy! Especially if you are still a very dark type, in the ideal case black-haired + brown skin. THERE IS NOT MORE MANLY!
      I love such men, it seems so animally masculine. I want to have an animal in bed, snuggle up to his fur and he should snuggle up to my male body fur! Men have to be hairy for me ;)

  120. It is true, doesent always come from your father thi

    my father have no body hair at all, cant even grow beard, and he still has his FULL hair, even though its white now..

    My uncle has lots of hair on chest and back, and has been balding since he was 30..

    My brother who is 22 now also have massive amount of body hair, and he already start balding! at 22!

    I”m 24 and i have like 0 body harir, also beardless like my dad, and my hair is still fine..

    i think its that lots of body hair have strong correlation with baldness

    1. That’s very true, based on what I’ve seen.

      I’m a 23 y.o. Mexican male with little facial hair and no chest hair at all. (Not surprised, since I’m 43% Native American, according to my ancestry reports.)
      I have a lot of hair on my head.

      What I worry about is my ring finger being longer than my index finger, which means I could most likely bald, according to a recent study:

      Is your ring finger longer or shorter than your index finger?

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