Microneedling (collagen induction therapy) entails wounding and skin disruption to induce hair growth and regeneration. In my prior posts on Follica, people often made informative comments about at-home microneedling and dermarolling for hair growth.
Update: March 2023
On a related note, a new scalp microinfusion technique from Portugal promotes drug delivery via micro-needling using a professional tattoo machine. It is known as the the MMP® technique. MMP is the Portuguese acronym for microinfusion of drugs into the skin. The researchers used a tattoo machine and cartridges containing 27 needles with a diameter of 0.3 mm and tip length of 5.5 mm. The needling depth was set to 300 microns and the frequency to 120 Hz. They injected Minoxidil into the scalp of balding patients to successfully promote hair growth.
Update: September 2022
Please let me know when this study on topical Dutasteride and microneedling is released in its entirety. It is based on a randomized controlled trial.
Microneedling for Better Drug Delivery
A really interesting study from China was published in July 2022. The researchers found that transdermal delivery of Rapamycin and Epigallocatechin Gallate (EGCG) nanoparticles with dissolvable microneedles led to significantly increased hair growth in mice. More here. Of interest:
“Rapamycin groups demonstrated more rapid hair growth, while EGCG groups had higher follicle density. The best results were achieved with a combination of rapamycin and EGCG.”
According to the authors, microneedling can break the barrier of the stratum corneum through puncturing. This ultimately improves drug delivery efficiency. Note that this microneedling process is not the same as at-home microneedling, but there has to be some commonality of intentional wounding.
We have seen other such studies in the past, but this is the first one to utilize non-hair loss drugs. Make sure to read my post on NAD, NMN and Dr. Sinclair, where I also touch upon Rapamycin.
Fake Dermaroller Warning
One of this blog’s valuable e-mail correspondants sent me the below lengthy message that I decided to paste after minor changes and corrections. I am not sure if the linked videos are biased by their sale of dermaroller products. I can also not vouch for the 95 percent “fake” estimate, considering that I have never microneedled or dermarolled my own scalp.
Moreover, some of the most popular demarollers on sale on Amazon have worked for many people per ratings and comments on hair loss forums, Discord and more. So perhaps some people just get lucky and even a slightly “off” or fake product also works?
Readers please let me know what you think in the comments to this post. At some point I might move this subject to the bottom of this post, underneath the original dermaroller section.
“You really might want to dig into the matter of fake dermarollers and shed light on this major topic, considering your large audience. Most people (probably yourself included and most dermatologists for sure) aren’t aware, but at least 95% of dermarollers sold on the internet are fake. I myself think this is the main reason why most people don’t get results when dermarolling, or even damage their hair.
Some related videos you should watch:
- https://youtu.be/q6IXraYOInQ (interesting experiment on a banana skin with real and fake dermarollers).
- https://youtu.be/hyyAJb0tEug
- https://youtu.be/LR-eseU90ls
The main difference is that the fake dermarollers have 540 “needles”. Moreover, these are actually spikes cut from cheap metal wheels, but this is often only visible by breaking the dermaroller. So consumer can never see the truth. The real ones have 192 needles.
However, some companies try to fool buyers by creating fake metal dermarollers with 192 needles (my previous one was fake despite my watchfulness). The ideal is to order a dermaroller on which the needles are visible through the roll.”
Update: January 5, 2022
New Microneedling and Hair Loss Studies
- A January 2022 study from China reported that micro-injury induces hair regeneration (and vitiligo repigmentation). The mechanism of action is via the Wnt/β-catenin pathway.
- In January 2022, a study from India concluded that microneedling monotherapy increased total hair count more than topical minoxidil 5%. The combination of the two was even more effective.
- A June 2021 study of interest, albeit not exactly related to at-home microneedling: Ceria nanozyme-integrated microneedles reshape the perifollicular microenvironment for androgenetic alopecia treatment.
- In February 2021, a study from Korea found that a newly developed home-use microneedle device enhanced the penetration of 5% Minoxidil. Patient self-assessment scores showed the highest satisfaction in the Minoxidil + Microneedling combination treated group. However, the excess hair count in this cohort after 6 months treatment (twice per week) was not statistically significant.
- In December 2020, an interesting letter summarized a pilot study on using Follica’s proprietary microwounding device to treat female pattern hair loss (FPHL). The results were very positive, and I covered them in detail here.
- A September 2020 study from Iran concluded that microneedling at a depth of 0.6 mm was more effective than at a depth of 1.2 mm. This is quite surprising, since most doctors and hair loss sufferers tend to recommend the higher number. For example, in the below video from 2020, the doctors suggest derma-rolling or micro-needling at a depth of 1-1.5 mm.
- A June 2020 study from China found Microneedling and Minoxidil combination treatment to be superior to either one by itself. The underlying mechanism involves activation of the Wnt/β-catenin signaling pathway.
Below is a great video from Dr. Gary Linkov. He recommends starting with 0.5 mm needle depth. Consult your doctor if you develop any scarring or other side effects.
December 25, 2019
My original post on using dermarolling in combination with Minoxidil was published all the way back in 2013. More evidence on the benefits of microneedling for hair loss reversal came in 2017, courtesy of Dr. Rachita Dhurat.
At-Home Microneedling for Hair Growth
Intentional scalp injury and wounding has been known to induce follicular neogensis via stimulating the dermis’ natural wound healing process. Over the years, there has been a lot of online discussion about DIY at-home microneedling and dermarolling to treat androgenetic alopecia.
I was planning to write a post on this subject in the past, but kept delaying it till today. For one, there are numerous hair loss forum and Reddit threads on this subject running into 100s of pages. Moreover, when it comes to microneedling for facial skin rejuvenation related applications, there is even more information available online. Including numerous reviews and before and after photos.
According to a summary of papers on microneedling, the procedure can help numerous dermatological conditions. These include skin rejuvenation (via increases in collagen and elastin); reduction of acne scarring, wrinkles, fine lines, stretch marks and surgical scars; improvement in undesired skin color changes such as melasma; and enlarged pore reduction. Note that in 2016, a Japanese research team found age-related hair loss to be caused by reduced collagen.
An increasingly common use entails using microneedling or skin puncturing for better transdermal drug delivery. In the hair loss world, many doctors and surgeons are using microneedling in tandem with application of hair growth serums, Minoxidil, PRP and Exosomes.
Needle Depth, Device Choice and Safety
Among the key questions when trying out at-home microneedling on the head:
- What is the appropriate depth of needles for microneedling on the scalp for hair growth? For thinner facial skin uses, fine needles of 0.25 mm and 0.5 mm depth seem to be preferred. For thicker scalp skin, many people recommend 1.5 mm to puncture the skin and epidermis sufficiently. Reader “PinotQ” mentioned a possible treatment regimen of 1.5 mm once a week, and 0.5 mm daily for maintenance. A September 2020 study from Iran found a depth of 0.6 mm to be more effective than a depth of 1.5 mm.
- What device is the best? There are hundreds of dermarollers and dermapens on sale online. A large number of those seem to have great reviews. It seems like most people prefer dermarollers to dermapens when it comes to the scalp, although the lower price of the former could be a factor. While the dermaroller needles enter the skin at an angle, dermapen needles enter vertically. Each device and delivery method has advantages and disadvantages.
- Safety precautions, including: making sure that the needles are sterilized and clean to prevent infection; not using too much force when rolling the device to avoid damaging the dermis; aftercare and cleaning up correctly in case of bleeding or other skin injury.
- How often to use the dermaroller or other micro needling device? Can one get away with just once a week treatment? Note that some people may easily bleed or have overly sensitive scalps, making microneedling impractical or even dangerous. For those with seborrheic dermatitis or psoriasis of the scalp, it is best to consult a dermatologist before starting treatment.
Dermarollers and Dermapens
Dermarollers work via a rolling head of hundreds of stainless steel needles that prick the skin.
Derma rollers are very cheap on Amazon. However, sizes range from needle depths of 0.25 mm to 0.5 mm to 1.5 mm. The rolling drum size can also vary significantly. You will need to read the comments to this post before deciding on the best product (s) for scalp hair growth purposes.
Many people also use handheld motor powered dermapens (more expensive) for microneedling. These are also known as micropens. Dermapens are handheld devices that work via oscillating pulses that rapidly move the needle up and down the treatment area. Unlike derma rollers that move horizontally across the skin, dermapens move vertically.
For more information, see this article on dermaroller versus dermapen. These two devices are also sometimes termed as microneedling roller v/s microneedling pen.
Dermastamps
An alternative product that some people praise is called the dermastamp (or derma stamp).
A popular one from Dr. Pen contains 140 titanium needles. As of today, it has been reviewed 130 times and holds a decent 4.4 out of 5 stars rating.
User Reviews on Microneedling at Home
Ultimately, the point of this post is to benefit from crowd-sourced reader comments about this subject matter all in one place. I might even start microneedling myself in 2020 if I get more motivated after reading about people’s experiences.
Follica’s recent statement seems to indicate that many kinds of wounding and skin injury can regenerate hair. Follica’s tried and tested in-office version and device will likely be the most effective. But for the time being, at-home use will have to suffice.
If you find any links to microneedling before and after hair growth photos, please post them in the comments.
I use a dermapen with 9 needles and i bleed everytime. I really does help in combination with minoxidil but it hurt like crazy and i dont want to apply numbing cream because of minox which i apply after the session.
I heard that 12 or 36 pin needles are less painfull, is that true? Also which device are u guys using? my has a max speed of 16.000 rpm but it still kinda hurts.
I believe it would be less painful if you use more needles. My reasoning is basic physics; the same amount of force would be distributed over more area. It’s the same principle people use to sit on a bed of nails. A few nails would puncture them, but many, many nails would mean that the force is spread out. I hope that helps, and anyone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
I use a microneedling device and have had no issues with bleeding. There’s no way I could do a dermaroller. I have tried, it tangles in my hair very easily, and is much more painful. I learned how to microneedle by watching the YouTube channel Hairliciously, and I recommend his channel to everyone. He seems like a good guy, and he gives a lot of hair loss tips. I hope that helps someone out.
Thank you Turner, im going to try that as well :-)
That principle doesn’t apply to mechanical microneedle devices because the motor forces every needle into your skin at the depth that is set on the device. It would apply to dermarollers or stamps, but the reason it hurts less is because you’re not getting as much penetration. So if you’re going for a certain depth you’re kind of defeating the purpose by spreading out the force and reducing the penetration.
@sanji You can try the other option with more pins but I’ve read in earlier posts that they don’t recommend to apply minoxidil the day of micro-needling. Just a thought you might want to try.
Of course you should use 36 or 42 needle pens more damage than redness is not necessary and may be dangerous and harm your follicles.
yes is true, 36 is way better than 12. however it is still a pain
I used a protocol similar to what PinotQ mentioned, with a 1.5 mm roller once a week and a .25mm roller every other day. Used them for about a year, with minoxidil and, for the second six months, a weak solution of lithium chloride inspired by SwissTemples’ experiments.
It hurt. It bled. I’m not sure the 1.5 mm roller hurt more; it had fewer needles and took a little less force to puncture my scalp. I had to really push with the .25 mm roller.
It was a bit of a time commitment. Could never get the whole “macerate my scalp” procedure down to a speedy and efficient part of my routine.
Not sure how much it’s talked about much regarding wounding, but infection IS a real possibility. I’m curious how Follica will handle the risk: are they abandoning plans for their at-home device in favor of in-office only procedures? I wouldn’t be surprised if they do, because it should be a major concern (and may be even for in-office visits). I kept everything sanitary, rolled with a clean scalp, soaked rollers in alcohol, etc., and still ended up at the emergency room with a bilateral posterior auricular lymph node infection. It wasn’t painful, but the doctors had never seen one before and they don’t tend to take scalp infections very lightly. Luckily, antibiotics cleared it up rapidly.
That experience took the wind out of my sails. I *think* I had some limited regrow this of non-vellus hairs at my temples and crown, but nothing in front. It wasn’t enough to justify continuing. Maybe more time would have improved the results.
I’d be willing to try it again IF there was some consensus about the protocol. Do you use minoxidil on puncture days? What depth? How often? Self experimentation is practically impossible on the time scale and with the regrowth rates we’re talking about.
Damn Al O’Pecia!
That sounds pretty serious. Sorry to hear you had that experience my friend. This not only seems time consuming, but also just too many variables currently for me to have any interest to try. I give anyone who has added this routine into their mix major respect! I have trouble finding the time to even do minoxidil twice daily these days and switched to once daily about 6 months back. Thinking I will switch back to twice daily though in the near future.
Thanks again for sharing your experiences.
Device: Derminator 2
Needles: 12-Needle Cartridge
Depth: .50mm-up to 1.75mm
Schedule: Every Sunday Afternoon
Duration: 5-6 months
Norwood: 5V
Regrowth: Observable thickening. Maybe new hairs (???).
Satisfaction: 3/5. This was a few years ago and there wasn’t much pictorial evidence to inspire me—back when I believed RCH-01 would come out any minute and Tsuji was a definite backup. Anyways, I realize now this is a long game so I’ll need to needle for years to really judge whether or not this treatment can fully recover a high norwood like mine. I’ll think of this like bodybuilding—can’t become a muscleman in months, nor can I become a hairgod.
Method:
Part One for Density — I turn on the machine and set it to .50mm or .75mm on high speed. There is minimal pain so I can run the machine entirely over my scalp in one constant motion. My scalp will turn entirely red with some pin-point blood. I go for as much coverage as possible, no cm2 left untouched. (I think this is very close to Dhurat’s study; my scalp looks comparable to pictures I’ve seen—i.e. mild redness, some blood spots)
Part Two for Depth — After I turn the depth up to 1.50mm. This feels very sharp, especially around the temples and bleeds easily. So I use small brush strokes and a damp cloth to wipe the blood from the area. I do this for a few passes around my head. In the beginning I immediately ran the machine 1.50mm / high speed and powered through my head quickly. But the pain was so immediately overwhelming I would feel nauseous and shaky afterwards. I think warming up at .50mm or .75mm is good for a jolt of adrenaline which improves pain tolerance for the higher depths.
After: I wash the needles using my water pic floss machine (haha); I shoot the stream of water at the needles until they are clean. Then I fill a small jar with alcohol and soak the cartridge for a day. Then I take it out, rinse it off, and try it again next Sunday. After that session, I replace the needle. I’ve never had any problems: no infections, scabbing, scarring, bruising, etc. nothing.
I apply minoxidil as I would on Monday to Saturday (sometimes once a day, sometimes twice). The redness on my scalp goes away after two or three days. It feels like a sunburn in the shower but otherwise doesn’t hurt to touch.
Downsides: The pain, the sight of blood, the hassle of setting up the machine, and the timeframe: it could take a decade to recover a full Norwood 7, I don’t know. There’s no definitive method to go by for maximum results. We just need some guys with high Norwoods to stick with this for years and accumulate some impressive pictures.
Upsides: It does actually work.
I began needling again two weeks ago. I’m going to do this for the entire year. 100% fully committed. 2020: I’m getting my cure with or without the industry’s help. Let’s get this party growing!
Hey guys just wondering I’ve been microneedling my scalp for two years. But it seem to have messed up my sleep, just wondering has that happen to any one else.
Hi Toccata,
How is the progress so far ? Were u able to continue in 2020
thanks
Hi , where can you buy the derminator 2 ? I’ve looked up the website and it won’t load for me .. I’ve also googled it and checked on Amazon with no sign of the machine anywhere ? Where did you buy it ?
Hi… long time reader. Never post though.
-1.5mm roller
-192 needles
-Once a week
-I push as hard as someone putting on deodorant.
-I don’t use minoxidil on rolling days as it can go systematic easier
-I use 2% minoxidil because I had sides with the 5% (heart palpitations, dark circles under eyes)
– The 2% I use once per day (before bed at night) no sides to speak of, prior sides went away.
-I’ve had a lot of noticable growth after 5 months of this routine.
Which brand did you purchase for 2% Minoxidil?
Just get womens rogaine. Its ingredient is just 2% instead of 5%. Only difference from mens.
I use a 2mm dermaroller every first and third Saturday morning of the month.
Before rolling, I apply a towel full of ice cubes on each area, so that my scalp gets vasorestricted, aka bleeding is minimum, and there is some desensitization. It does really work, but you have to let the towel cool the area for more than 30 sec.
I cool the area, then I dermaroll, then I remove the blood from the hemorrhagic spots and apply some betadin solution, and then I repeat the same process to an adjacent area again and again until all my balding scalp is rolled.
Afterwards, I apply an expensive moisturizer that I use only on my scalp.
Of course, scalp is red and sensitive right afterwards.
I apply minoxidil in the afternoon, about eight hours after the dermarolling session.
I shower three-four hours later and then I apply a couple of pea-sized drops of tretinoin (0.05% solution) on my dermarolled scalp (at NIGHT; You should not apply Retin-A in daylight hours).
The next 12 days I apply minox in the morning, at ~7 am, and then again at 6-7 pm, along with a moderate amount of the scalp moisturizer. I use the 5% Rogaine solution, btw.
Each Tuesday and Thursday I also apply tretinoin at night.
I don’t dermaroller at smaller depths, but I may try it out. I haven’t made up my mind yet.
Started this regime three months ago, but can’t really evaluate its efficacy, ’cause I shave my head. I’ll let it grow again in the summer, almost a year after sticking hopefully to this regime.
Fingers crossed!
I tried every combination I could think of from .5 mm to 1.5 mm at varying degrees of concentration and coverage from once a week to once every other week but can’t say I ever saw any results. I did find that on the day of and the day after microneedling, my hair would definitely get a cosmetic bump and look a little healthier and thicker. The one piece of advice I would give is that in my experience, a microneedling device is much less painful than a roller. Even at 1.5 mm, I do not feel much pain. I use an MD Pen which is expensive but very well made. I have not micro-needled for several years but recently am giving it another go at 1.5 mm every 2 weeks with a quick .5 mm 5 days a week. I use an 18 needle cartridge for 1.5 mm and a 36 needle cartridge for the .5 mm.
Sounds a lot like my experience…I microneedle with a 1.5 mm stamp every Saturday. Not any real noticeable results except the day after I get the bump where my hair looks healthier and thicker. I don’t use topical Minoxidil after I microneedle as when I tried that my scalp would get lots of scale/dead skin on it. Now I take one drop of 2% Minoxidil in water after I microneedle. That corresponds to roughly .5 mg of oral Minoxidil. Other than that I use 2% after my daily shower and 5% before bed.
Ed, the topical foam Minoxidil (Rogaine) might not give you the scaling and dead skin.
I want to try microneedling too. I want to start with dermaroller I don t want to spend too much on a derma pen since I saw that is more expensive. The thing is that there are many needle sizes like 0.5mm, 0.75mm, 1mm, 0.25mm and so on. Does anyone know which size is recommended for regrowth and frequency usage in general?
I have tried Microneedling for about 8 months, zero results. But without my daily dose of minoxidil (5% once a day) I would be screwed.
Don’t understand how someone can buy a derminator and make their scalp bleed by trial and error. You are probably doing more harm than good and damaging follicles. The durhat study said light erythema of scalp, no bleeding. I have wanted to try light dermatollimg but afraid I’ll start shock loss and make things worse. There are some YouTube guys who grew back tons of hair doing it but it could be a hoax. Some German guy went from nw5 to thick nw1. He started fin, min and rolling all the same time.
Yeah, I almost bought a derma pen and was going to start my journey with micro needling. We all have probably seen that you tuber who promotes it (name starts with a ‘H’) with pretty good before and afters. Keep in my mind he runs a business selling products. I decided against at home micro needling. I could be causing more harm then good, risk of infection, Don’t know what I’m doing, etc. For anyone wanting to try it – Go for gold. Judging by some of the comments, results are very mixed. My protocol now is 1mg of Fin per day and scalp massages. Honestly would love to see something come out in 2020 that actually helps with regrowing hair.
Cotsarelis, George
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2019/0380942.html
If you decide to begin microneedling do yourself a favor and invest in a proper device. There is significant difference between the puncture from a mechanical pen and a roller. This fine puncture from the pen creates proper wound induction with induces collagen synthesis. The puncture from a roller creates more of a tearing type puncture which inducing more scarring and fibrotic tissue especially in deeper wounding for the scalp. This is why many dont find success with rolling. I wish i can find the study which goes into detail about this. Theres many devices out there that are affordable for proper microneedling. I personally use Vaughter wellness device. Its well built, affordable and the replacement needles are cheap but theres alot of options out there so choose what you feel is best. I have been needling for the last few years now with great results. I do once every 10 days at 2.0mm and use topical lithium chloride once immediately after my session, then followed by minoxidil mixed with cb0304 twice a day. I dont take any meds anymore, i just cant deal with the side effects of avodatt anymore; i guess im just to sensitive to 5ar inhibitors. But overall im happy i started to microneedle. Definitely got some really good regrowth and thecb has stopped the hairloss. It can be a chore because you wanna make sure everything is done properly and sanitarily but overall when you start to see results its worth it. Btw im not affiliated with vaughter wellness. Im not trying to promote there product in any way but since thats the one i use i just wanted to share my experiance with it
Thats great news man, thank for the advice. Do you have any before and afters?
This sudden new claim is baloney. It’s being pushed by the Derminator hype. Like when dentists suddenly push electric toothbrushes. It’s bunk. Dermarollers are fine. You’re not supposed to go in that deep. No blood needs to be drawn. Redness is all you should have.
No idea about concentration or frequency at either a shallow depth (.5 mm) or at the Dhurat depth of 1.5 mm……….or whether a combination of both would work. However, based on this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3921236/ and other studies I have read, a .5 to .6 mm depth closes by electrical cell stimulation within a maximum of 15 minutes without any trace of scar tissue. The study also says that due to this rapid closure, the risk of infection is “very unlikely”. This is a study about microneedling for skin and not hair but if you are thinking about experimenting at home, this is a must read. FYI While had zero growth after extensive experimentation, one of the big positives is that microneedling definitely made my scalp feel better……for those with itchy scalps. And no shock loss for me at any depth.
10 cycles with a dermaroller at .5mm is optimal in mice.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5064188/
Figure with a roller you’re getting maybe half of the penetration of a pen at best, so .25mm, and 500 pricks per square centimeter if using a mechanical device. The big question is how do we extrapolate that to humans? If human skin is 2 to 3 times as thick as mouse skin does that mean we should aim for .5 to .75mm with a mechanical device? We don’t want to go too deep. A 1mm roller showed almost no effect on mice, and 13 cycles is too many.
I noticed that someone said in other post something about going 1 – 1.5 mm and everything below has no effect but others say that around 0.5 mm is optimal (not deeper). It s quite difficult to know which choice makes more sense, at least for someone who doesn’t have much knowledge regarding follicle anatomy. I m still reading here and search on internet before I try microneedling.
Dr. Pen or Derminator 2?
Any comments or suggestions in that regard?
Thanks to all!
Derminator 2 is much more expensive, both for inital cost, and for replacement cartridges. The needles are finer though, which means less chance of scarring, although I’ve had a couple of needles get bent which concerns me. With the derminator 2 you are getting exactly the rated number of wounds per second, and the correct depth. Dr. Pen’s rpm numbers are grossly inflated. You really don’t know what you are getting, and the depth may be inconsistent as well.
Microneedling only worked for me after I added the daily 20-minute massage routine, (with two days of rest after the micro wounds), with a technique like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gTmvfqwxX4 and I think that vitamin D and the zinc supplement added to that, because I hardly went out to sunbathe.
Johnny K I think the minox and cb is what is giving you regrowth. Maybe not the derma wounding.. did you start minox cb the same time you started derma needling?
I have been using minox amd dut for many years, i only started using CB after i discontinued dut. Most of the original regrowth i had was from the dut. CB held onto most of the regrowth i had from the dut. The regrowth ive had from the microneedling is clearly new regrowth, not from the CB.
Johhny K, Where do you get your CB and do you know how many mg are in each application?
The only place i found it was at kane shop. If i could buy it from someone else i would but unfortunately thats the only consistent source. Seems legit though, bought both CB and RU from him and havent had an issue so far but buy at your own risk. i’ve been considering switching back to RU. It’s much more cost effective and any vehicle will work for RU where as CB doesnt just simply dissolve in ethanol or minoxidil, especially at higher doses. I think i got better results from RU as well. I would just dissolve it in Lipogaine. CB i would use at a does of 5%, RU 30mg dissolved in 1ml of Lipogaine. So honestly you could pick either and get good results. If you decide to pick a topical i’d go with RU, much simpler to use but dont go crazy with the dose because you will get side effects, with CB i never had sides but the vehicle is difficult to make and it is cost prohibitive if you want to use it consistently at the optimal does from the breezula study (7.5% twice a day). But adding a topical androgen blocker will go a long way to halting your hairloss and maybe recovering a good amount back depending on when you start if you are consistent with your use.
I’m sorry, i’m new – what is cb and dut? In a research hole over here trying to figure out what to do to my head!
Dut is dutasteride, a 5-AR blocker. Effectively shuts down DHT.
CB is clascoterone aka CB-03-01, a topical steroidal anti-androgen. It is a research chemical and not FDA approved (yet).
Nice research article. The repeated cycling and the 5 days per week seem consistent with the quorum sensing concept in the Follica Clinical summary. It also seems consistent with this research article https://elifesciences.org/articles/28875 stating that only a small number of cells near a damaged site will respond…..thus more concentration and more frequency may be required. The article also says that “they observed a quantitative decrease in proliferative hair follicle stem cells as early as 1 day post wounding.”…….possibly indicating that repeated needling might increase effectiveness. Repeated daily needling at .5 mm would seem safe while needling more often than at 1.5 mm may not allow enough time to move from the inflammation to the proliferation phase of wound healing.
This is very interesting indeed. The daily interruption (which follica is doing) might be the most important factor.
But I don’t know whether applying minox after microneedling is a good Idea..
I apply minoxidil like 2 hours after microneedling 1-1.5mm with zero side effects. Ofc, been doing this only for the past 2 months
looks like samumed’s clinical trials have been delayed by 6 months according to the clinical trial page. anyone got any more info?
Huh? They are already in a Phase III – projected to be completed around June.
not if you check their trial online
My hair is on the way out but thankfully right now I still have plenty left. Do I just..roll the dermaroller over my existing hair?
If you are losing ground don’t waste time and start using finasteride and minoxidil, stay cheap don’t use brand stuff. Good luck
Find a plastic surgeon that does Botox injections and ask if they will inject some into your scalp perimeter. It has been shown to stop hair loss (provided you do it twice a year) and even regrow lost hair. If you combine that with the dermaroller, you might not even need minox.
The idea of shoving spikes into my head to keep what everyone has for free just makes me automatically not give a damn I’d rather not bother
I agree with egghead. This is getting beyond ridiculous. Follica better have pulled a marketing stunt with that pic. If that is there best then it may not be worth people’s time to use their treatment.
People shouldnt lose their hair or teeth. Took me an hour to style my diffuse hair this morning to look somewhat presentable. 2020 and all we have are big 3 and a potential new treatment that requires 2x the work for the same results.
I dont get why there isnt more interest. theres a lot of money in this solution
Wonder nobody talk about possible side effects like infection, etc .
Hey James Booker,
You might have overlooked it but read the 5th post by Al O’Pecia. He specifically talks about a personal instance he had an infection.
Mjones, stop always repeating the same thing. You’re too heavy.
Its already 2020 guys.
We are about to find out if the cure is gonna come out or the prophecy of admin is not gonna be fulfilled.
Lets hope we wont have to use these mediocre treatments and medications anymore.
And does anyone here has before and after pictures? Sounds like not so healthy combination. I tried once minoxidil and it was enough. Couldn’t sleep in that night because heart felt crazy. Maybe i use it too much or because i use it after sauna. It was foam. Micro needling i also tried but have not enough faith to believe it works or are worth of risk.
Just my thoughts and experience.
I am a frequent viewer to this blog site. I don’t post regularly on here but have a few times in the past. I started dermarolling this past August 2019, and have to say I am seeing some kind of a result. I started fin (1.0 mg a day) back in Jan. 2017 and the first year revealed some good growth but not an entire fill in of my crown area (my main area of concern). I also use to use 5% minox for about 5/6 years but felt it wasn’t doing anything any more by year 5 and quit after 6 years, even after combining it with the fin, no major results. In 2018/19 I felt my hair was stable but had not achieved the desirable results on fin. So when I came across derma rolling examples where some guys were getting incredible results I had to look into this. Took me a bit to research and convince myself to try. If it weren’t for some of the legit efficacy studies I came across I dont think I would have tried this at all. Anyway, have been derma rolling since Aug. (once a week religiously w/ 0.5 mm roller). I will be having my partner take a pic soon of my crown area so I can see if there is any real major improvement or not. She says every once in a while she see’s dark baby hairs coming in. I look at my crown every day and feel there is some changes for sure. But it’s a bit odd, some days it looks like new growth in new areas, but also new thinning in other areas.
Happy 2020 to all my bald buddies out there… and let’s hope that this year is the one…:)
Hey Rodri, you are right…sorry. just needed to vent. I’ll lay off the forums for a while. Nothing new will come out that I won’t hear about from other news sources anyways.
Happy NYE everyone!
Mjones,
I think we are in the same boat. I’ve got diffuse thinning, and it’s becoming harder to disguise – and more time-consuming. If I “get it” in 30 mins, I’m delighted. Usually, though, it takes much longer, and still looks rubbish.
I don’t have any issues with you mentioning it, or venting. If you ever want to vent, I’m happy for admin to give you my e-mail address.
Mjones the world knows about your diffuse hairloss. You, me and thousands on here have diffuse hairloss etc. That I think is the main theme we here over and over about you, I think you just need to lay off of that for a while…and follicles treatment is better then just applying regular minox. If you cant see the difference many are having by rolling combined with minox then you need glasses. If you are saying that for the most part follica is rolling plus minox and that is upsetting, then yes you have a point.
And I would also really like to know why samumed SM trial got extended by at least a other 6 months?
Happy new year friends!
Tom jones. Are you rolling with minox? I needle stamp but haven’t seen any results, actually just more thinning in that area I stamp. Been doing it 2x a week for the past 12 months. I’m probably doing it wrong, who knows. Those who got results and posted pics just got a few hairs that made barely any cosmedic difference in my opinion. There were some dudes that got massive growth but u think that is a scam. The German guy and that reddit guy. Most people just got a few hairs. Do you have any links to good responders I can check out? Wouldn’t mind trying their protocol
Try light daily rolling
It seems that you take balding very seriously but you can’t spend 15 minutes reading a paper or a proper needling routine:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3921236/
I haven’t seen any studies/routines with daily rolling. “The inflammation phase begins immediately after injury and may last for an average of 7–14 days”
Im not even NW1,5 and doing more homework than many of this site users, that complaint about severe balding, together.
Can we do something about grey/white plz guys? Really pissing me off, infuriating we can’t even get the blessed hair to colour itself on the way out in 2020, forget re-grow
Mutruk – Same problem here. I haven’t tried this product, but I’ve been thinking about it – myhairprint.com
It looks like a pain to apply to me. But if it does last 2-6 mos. as they say (which I doubt), I would be interested.
Yeah I looked into it once or twice but didn’t quite get what the hell it was lol
Might have another look especially if u say it lasts months…My issue is beard atm, although some head hairs r popping now too..Just for men really isn’t a viable option
Happy New Year, everybody!
May Tsuji be with us.
Mjones I did roll with minox a few times but I hot bad heart sides so I stopped. It is what it is…I have seen some studies of rolling and minox where the pictures looked great. If I could continue, I would….do you have any idea why samumed extended their trial? That was my last hope.
I have no clue Tomjones on why samumed extended it. As long as they didn’t cancel it then we are still in good shape.
What size needle roller did you use or did you use a stamp ?
Oral minoxidil at a low dose is very effective and being prescribed by nhs salford for aga.
Isnt it possible that by microneedling and applyin minoxidil its going systemic and thats why the results are so good with that combination?
As far as microneedling goes, microneedling1/2 weeks @ 1.5mm with a 1ml minoxodil 5% treatment is pretty much the best at home thing you can do for regrowth by the numbers. It wont fix the accelerated ageing caused by androgen mediated disruption of the wnt pathway, for that use propecia or other androgen/5ar inhibitor.
The Dr. pen a6 is pretty legit; good price and extremely effective. Derminator is an alternative option that I’ve never tried myself. What controls how much the micro needling hurts is the diameter of the needles. smaller diameter = less pain. Don’t get the cheap cartridges. I tried that they hurt.
Another option is 1/ 2 weeks or 1 / week at .9 mm depth since this is Follica’s depth in their patent. I’ve tried it and didn’t notice a difference from the 1.5mm. I went back to the 1.5mm because it is tried and true. There are tons of pictures and papers evaluating microneeding using 1.5mm depth. Microneedling until pinpoint bleeding is an option I just go until I get a pink edema myself. I’ve done the pinpoint bleeding thing, didn’t seem to improve my results.
Seriously just try the microneedling, how many nw 4 to nw 2 in 6 months of big 4 results do you need to see before you try it out? It might not work for everyone, but the pictures and the numbers are crazy impressive.
Anyone here try micro needling and using essential oils like rosemary, lavender, peppermint? Im just curious if anyone has done so. Thank you.
I am very optimistic about Samumed, am I the only one? Please let me know your opinion.
I am too. Just an update on this topic…I switched to Dr. Pen and set it to 1.5mm and use 5% minoxidil (half dose) once per day (skip 24 hours after derma rolling). So far I’ve seen more gains than my dermaroller. I would recommend the switch. Just do enough for redness imo you don’t need to make yourself a bleeding mess.
Great to hear Cowlick!
Thank you! I think for some people “the cure” may end up being microneedling + minoxidil + product x + product y etc. like you previously mentioned admin.
Lorence, SM is the only treatment that I get excited about.
Seems like a lot of companies are presenting weak results recently. Follica’s pictures and Histogen’s latest press releases are two examples. Not sure about Sumumed but IMHO Beezula seems like our best bet. May be available as early as next year in the US. Samumed is doing phase 3 in Turkey and may be available next year in Turkey. Not sure when it would be available in the US.
I used dermarolling with Stémoxydine dercos neogenic and minoxidil for 4 months and it was disappointing. I was a good candidate because I still have some hair, but there was nothing noticiable.
Hi Sylvinio! How often did you dermaroll and with what needle depth? When did you apply minox and when stemoxydine?
I’ve tried it off and on with various depths. I’ve never been impressed. To me, this is just another scheme (i.e., snake oil) for some to make money off of. If someone finds benefit, great. I doubt it’ll be much though. It’s no game changer, regardless of what fancy name they apply to it. It’s like we’re going back in time.
Sorry Sam, didn’t mean that as a reply to you – just a general comment. My apologies.
Has anyone tried microneedling on its own or with herbal topicals (non-drug) only? I realize drugs like rogaine are more effective than holistic treatments but I’d be more willing to try something holistic/drug-free until follica comes out with their treatment.
Maybe Saw Palmetto…
Safflower Oil — Rub it in after needling. Simple as.
Safflower Oil expresses FGF9: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30157831/
FGF9 induces follicle neogenesis after wounding:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23727932/
; )
Great research………………..are you trying this?
Saw Palmetto works for some but it unfortunately gave me fin like sides. Diluted rosemary and diluted peppermint oils maybe. NOT 100% essential oil that can make your heart beat too fast like minoxidil does with some users.
@Daniel. Saw Palmetto did bugger-all for me. Tried all different brands and dosages over a 3 yr period to treat both BPH and hair loss. Hate to think what I spent for zero results?! BPH wise-it certainly didn’t help me p*ss like a racehorse either. Ha. Maybe you can try it though? Who knows…maybe the hair gods will smile on you? 320mg is the daily (albeit unregulated) recommended dosage for hair loss I think?
A saw palmetto sup helped me stop the shed. Can’t believe it!
Interesting article:
https://wjmh.org/Synapse/Data/PDFData/2074WJMH/wjmh-37-e46.pdf
If anyone is using shampoo brand Tresemmé:
https://www.foxla.com/news/class-action-lawsuit-filed-against-shampoo-brand-tresemme-claims-keratin-products-cause-hair-loss?fbclid=IwAR0_x_Qe-J5t-xdaRqansNa6vpRFTRIJdCzuc3s82kOVpohRu1hT3sCmtxw
Hey sam i have used dermaroller once every day with minoxidil 5% for 4 months and I have done exactly the same with stemoxydine
A deep dermins layer microneedling, as a 1.5 mm is considered to be, stimulates ahigh rate of collagen production for about a month, followed by a decrease, but still it can take three or more months until the effect dissappears. It brings no advantage to repeat deep microneedling sooner than 1-3 months after the previous treatment. Also keep in mind, that if the needle is too long, and it goes beyond the dermis layer, the fat layer will be damaged, or shrinked, which is not desirable, since the subcutanous fat layer gives the skin youthful look.
Has someone here seen results from dermarolling by itself?
How long does it take?
Thanks.
After three months I noticed the growth of vellus hair on the temples, I was very excited, but unfortunately after a year vellus hair is the only thing I got.
I lost more hair dermarolling. My hair line receded at a quicker rate. So I stopped and now I am another Norwood higher in my hair line. I think dermarollikg caused inflammation and shock loss to my temples and now I’m stuck with the dented hairline. I am on the big 3 btw. It’s either hair cloning or nothing. Doubt dermarollimg does anything . I think it’s all fake reddit sources showing that regrowth. Probably another reason why follica hasn’t come to market. Its prob just the rogaine causing the regrowth….who knows. I’m seriously looking into fue for my hairline now..
@Mjones just get the f.u.e done bro . because hair cloning is not going to happen not in 15 – 20 years. We still don’t know if its even possible for clone hair to survive on human skin just mice models. So I personally think the whole industry is a joke.
I’ve had great results still with the dermapen over the past year. I put this above but copying and pasting for convenience: Dr. Pen and set it to 1.5mm. I use 5% minoxidil (half dose) twice per day (skip 24 hours after derma rolling). Just do enough for redness imo you don’t need to make yourself a bleeding mess.
Thanks. All indications suggest that Minoxidil efficacy increases with “correct” microneedling methods.
Hi,
I’m considering using a dermapen in combination with Minoxidil 5%. However, I’ve read some comments and articles which state that microneedling increases the risk of skin cancer.
Do you know anything about that?
Thanks.
Hi Rob,
I have used micro needling with cocktail (without minoxidil) it was really effective. During this therapy I use anti hair loss tonic. I am going to have straighten keratin on my hair this week. do you think using microneedling after 2 week would be harmful and the needles will inject the keratin substance in to my skin?
Are there studies about relationship between keratin and needling or hair loss? I heard even using hair loss tonics will conduct the keratin in to scalp… is it right? Thanks a lot Rob.
Does microneedling generally come with shockloss? Interested in your experiences…been on fin for 11yrs, minoxidil 1yr, started to microneedle (derminaror2) for past 4months….0.5/0.7mm every 2 weeks…if anything it feels thinner. Not sure whether to persist with it..
A word of caution from one who knows (please don’t ask why in this public forum). I advise against buying anything of a medical nature from the well known retailer.
Great article, admin. Rapamycin and ECGC are approved and safe drugs/supplements, fingers crossed for a quick new treatment. Imho China‘s far behind in terms of basic research, but money-wise they could set something up pretty quickly, just like Kintor.
I always wondered with microneedling: how do you use it when your hair is longer than let’s say 5 mm? How do you effectively touch the dermis? I wouldn’t want to trim it down regularly just to microneedle…
Minor update from Moogene:
https://m.blog.naver.com/PostView.naver?blogId=moogene2&logNo=222864641678&navType=by
Commercialization 2nd half 2023. Patent rights of the novel delivery method are solved, that’s what has caused the small delay.
Application 1 – 2 times per month (in the clinic though; that’s how
i read it…). Results are superior to oral Fin and have much better serum concentrations and less side effects. The mouse study showed 90 % (!) regrowth.
Let’s see.
https://www.wired.com/story/new-baldness-treatments/
My only hope …
Thanks, good summary article.
I am not sure it is so much about “fake” derma rollers, as it is about cheap, poor quality derma rollers. According to Follica’s patent ( https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2019232242 ), a little less than half way down there is a section entitled “Needling Devices” where they discuss the difference between rollers and powered microneedling devices. I am sure your poster is correct that there are very poor quality derma rollers out there, but regardless of the quality of a derma roller, according to the patent, because of the rolling barrel design, all derma rollers cause small cuts and scrapes.
I totally agree with you.
Hah the derma roller I have is fake too! All the new information I see lately tells me I’ve been doing everything backward. I should apply fin on the head instead of taking it orally and ingest minox instead of spreading it over the head. And use a real derma roller instead a metal knockoff! sigh :(
Sometimes I think that today we have more information than necessary to be able to develop a cure, but for some strange reason we still hesitate to do so … I just don’t know what to think …
I have been microneedling with Dr. Pen, 1.5mm over most of my head and 1mm on the much thinner parts (both sides of the forelock area). I also use 10% minoxidil with topical finasteride and latanoprost.
It’s been 5 months and I’ve had amazing results on the crown and left half of the forelock region, the right side has scant new vellus hair. Has anyone here experienced that, where one side of your head is not responding yet?
Rick C…..did you start 10% minox combo with dermameedling at the the same time 5 months ago or were you using the 10% Minox prior and added dermaneedling as a new addition?
I’ve been using derma rollers, stamps and pens for years.
I finally got a derminator 2 and I’m never looking back.
It’s the best tool for the job.
Every now and then I’ll pull out the roller or stamp for some touch and go light use but the D2 is by far the best tool.
Been doing it for about 6 month, with mixed consistency only in my front part that is where I shed. I definetely notice some new hairs. I also got 3-5 hair so low on my forehead way below my hairline when I was in my 20es since I microneddled there and also massaged for like 3-4 years. It seems to work even tought I do not do it so regularly.
Can somebody please explain what is meant by “cycles” in this study? For example when they say
“We found that the optimal length and cycle of microneedle treatment on hair growth was 0.25 mm/10 cycles and 0.5 mm/10 cycles.”
What does “10 cycles” mean? 10 rounds? (repeating the entire process 10 times)? or 10 rolls? (rolling for a total of 10 times)? Or something else?
I’ve researched and researched and i can’t figure out what “cycles” means here.
thank you!!
Interesting most upvoted comment from a David Megino in today’s new Bryan Johnson hair loss video:
@davidmegino
Thanks Bryan for this vid! couldn’t agree more about Microneedling. as someone who has the most aggressive hair loss (my two brothers were Norwood 7 by 28-30), not to mention aggressive retrograde alopecia as well, all my cousins in both families are Norwood 6-7 by 30. I am 32 and have managed to keep 90% of my hair. Unfortunately I experienced bad side effects from finasteride and had to quit. However, using minoxidil + microneedling saved my hair. I strongly believe that DHT is related to blood circulation, which in turn due to low supply leads to hair loss. I used a derma roller + minoxidil and kept losing hair. Once I switched to a high-quality pen, within two months my shedding stopped and my hair started to get thicker by month 4 with a lot of new growth. I have followed this protocol for 5 years and haven’t lost ground. It’s possible—just be consistent. use a good Pen and do NOT skip sessions. If it worked for me, it should work for EVERYONE.